Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

Exactly. Very well stated.

Exactly. Very well stated.

Exactly, so my question still stands: how is that Hungary that is not wealthy CAN afford paying THAT much money to people who are willing to have children - and the more the better, ideally three! - yet we the UK, the sixths world economy, cannot do less than that? How come???

So why even mention that you stopped at one for affordability and other should too? If you're so happy one and done you wouldn't be bitter about a woman who wants 3 children, or has one and wants another then continues with an unplanned twin pregnancy who needs help from the state.

It’s too bad that we can’t rely upon selfish, careless people to “enforce” the limits on themselves, isn’t it? Out of rock-bottom consideration for the taxpayers who are supporting their lifestyle choices.

I have no idea, what does research tell you? I know nothing about Hungary so I'm not the one to ask but maybe they don't continually spaff taxpayer money on vanity projects eg HS2/Digital ID etc?
Maybe they don't have as much debt to service or as big a benefits bill?

Look it up as I have no clue

And now we're back to you assuming any pregnancy a woman experiences is totally selfish. You can't actually tell the difference between the woman who claims benefits for a kid she wanted or the kid she got through rape, you'll dehumanise her regardless. Did you answer if you have kids yet? I must have missed it.

As a PP said "The message has been heard and received. Don't sweat about a few outliers. Sweat about the abolition of the state pension and social security system as we know it in the near future."

Society isn't coping because successive governments have successfully divided us enough that we dehumanise each other, see the worst in each other, while government leaders actively works to benefit themselves and line their own pockets and those of their wealthy sponsors. It isn't struggling because a shrinking number are having kids, and some of them have those kids while on Universal Credit.

As shown, different people mean different things when they say "don't have kids you can't afford". The kindest is that it's a harsh platitude towards those already in very difficult situations shouldn't make it worse; however, for some it's anyone who doesn't fit their idea of comfortable are selfish to reproduce.

Despite UK teenage pregnancy rates have dropped significantly to less than half what they were just over a decade ago and the latest ONS data I can find showing little difference in number of children by household income (cause really, when people say 'uneducated and undereducated' they mean poor), people will shout from the rooftops confidently that those at the bottom are to horrible animals to blame for everything from the country going bankrupt to climate change. That we have billions unaccounted for and its well documented that the vast majority of climate change causes come from corporations and governments that act like corporations. The institutions are at least succeeding in keeping the ire so many clearly have off of them.

I'm not bitter, that's a quality you've applied to me because of your personal prejuduce and internal bias. I just believe in personal responsibility and that the taxpayer shouldn't foot the bill especially at a time when we can't afford it.

People who can't afford to feed and look after the DC they already have, shouldn't have more DC and expect the taxpayer to foot the bill.

Let's see how you twist that.......

No, the batshittery is excusing and indulging teen pregnancy with maudlin claptrap.

Decent parenting is a major preventative. No one in my school 45 years ago gave birth in her teens. It wasn’t culturally acceptable, and those of us who were sexually active were laser-focused on preventing it.

I think being able to raise small children to school age shouldn't be seen as a luxury or something to be put down upon if it can't fully be funded by parents.
The whole what about the effect on a women's career is a mute point if you're minimum wage worker, yes it will effect pension contributions, you still get some if claiming CB. Also any post about benefits, I see so many people begrudging any kind of support for low paid parents as well as none working ones.
Time and again you also see get a better job in posts about UC top ups or needing childcare help.Thats just not possible for a lot of minimum wages workers, not everyone has the brains for more skilled work. We as a society need manual labour workers and if they're not paid a fair wage and the government don't force companies to pay fairly then top-ups are very much needed We would be fucked if people who couldn't fully support a family before having one stopped reproducing.
I think if a woman chooses to she should be able to raise a child to school age with support from the government. Not everyone wants to pop out a child and be back working within months, granted some don't have that luxury and it's sad. Those in higher paid jobs don't seem to have as many opportunities to take time off which is sad. Maybe if the government made maternity leave fairer and stopped women's careers taking hits for having time off to raise children, it might mean those that choose to could take the time. Also paying them a decent SMP as in full wage for at least 18 m and after government top ups
Should have wrote this in bullet points as a it's a little disjointed , sorry hope it makes sense

Yet you have ignored every example on this thread of unplanned pregnancies and how they can come about even through unconsensual means, to hide behind the vague phrase of personal responsibility without wanting to say they you either think poor people have a personal responsibility to have an abortion they want not want it feels able to go through or to be on some kind of long lasting contraception which again they any not want for many many reasons. For someone who can't consider anything outside of her own personal experience you've got cheek a causing me of internal bias and prejudice for asking you to consider anything outside of your bubble.

I've never used it (income well below 100k) though not as a self-flagellation exercise 😂 I don't think it's a drain on the system either, it's actually a drop in the ocean of horrendous budget mis-management and wrong spending priorities over decades.

No one? There was definitely a teen mum or 2 in high school days that finished in the late 90s.

My friend got pregnant with condoms so went on the pill pregnant again so had a coil got pregnant again used a different coil began having major medical episodes they believed were connected to the coil so they eventually removed it and were going to put another different coil in or implant put her on a different "better" pill in the meantime and she got pregnant again
Either your friend is lying to you (very easy to pretend you are using safe methods when you're not to justify your choice to continue to have children) or if she isn't, she is an exceptional case and therefore it's pointless to use her example as representing the average.

Well the UK had the second highest rate of teen pregnancy back then so once again didn't happen in your school or tiny bubble so it never happened ever.

Because the only way to enforce your 1-2 child limit in any real world sense in pretty fucking grim which is why no one wants to expand on how they think this should be done
You shouldn't have to enforce it. We need to raise our kids to learn to make right decisions rather than self-centred decisions that are wrong.For that, we need parents who themselves adhere to the concept of self-responsibility. Sadly, that notion is dying a quick death. That thread is a perfect example of that!.

So you agree now we could afford it but we choose to spend our money elsewhere 😂

I have most certainly not ignored anything. I've answered but you choose not to accept my explanation, again that's on you not me.

I've worked in education for over 20 years Inc as a teacher and vocational tutor working with 16 Yr olds in deprived areas.
I have experience so again it's your bias applying the label of not being able to "consider anything outside of your bubble".

You're wrong, the working poor do pay tax on their income above personal allowance.

I don't know how many times I'm gonna have to ask on this thread what your definition of personal responsibility is for parents who become pregnant on contraception or unconsensually? Please lay out exactly what actions you would feel is satisfactory of them taking personal responsibility. Say it.

No I didn't say that did I? Where did I say we could afford it?
I said we can't but maybe Hungary prioritises things we don't.

Have you looked it up?

Children need housing and this is where the problem lays. We sold off our low cost housing stock for forty years and it's never been replaced (it was designed as starter homes, people were expected to save and vacate it. A matter of pride). No home, no belonging (Maslow) Some women are unfortunately left by feckless men (my BFF and niece both had this). Both long relationships. Neither ex partner paid. Both in the building trade so they get cash and hide it. They both live in rentals.
It's not a question of don't have children you can't afford but dear God make sure you have savings and a job/career as a woman before you're pregnant.
It's madness to have multiple children if you don't factor in money.
I grew up on a council estate with hand me down clothes. I made sure I had a proper career and worked like a dog to achieve it. I expected nothing from men although I was lucky to marry a decent man. We waited twelve years to start a family. I have two grown up children both successful and not relient on the state.
You make your choices.

Stop goading people into falling into your narrative.

I have repeatedly answered it as have others, you just choose not to accept their answers.

I will report you for goading if it continues.

Sorry to hear about your situation, but taking precautions is ALWAYS important. There are lots of insurance providers that will insure you in case of a death or loss of job. This is especially important if you have a mortgage and your partner was the main earner.

This whole thread is about taking personal responsibility and not looking for the state to bail us out.