Don't have kids you can't afford!

[user793847984375948]

Hi all, this is meant to be an interesting discussion.

I keep seeing people say, “Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them.”

But in the UK, if someone works full-time on minimum wage, the state ends up paying thousands for childcare so that parent can work.
If that same parent stayed home, they would receive less support overall, yet they would be raising their own child hands-on. A single mum can work part-time and get rent and living costs for kids, around 500 a month in support if she works.

Nursery is about 1K a month usually. Then there's the wraparound care before and after school that could also be funded by UC.

So why is one scenario seen as responsible and the other as “sponging”?

Further, do people who say “don’t have kids you can’t afford” actually think only those earning £60k or more should have children, since that is roughly what it takes to cover childcare or a single income? That eradicates the above two scenarios and it's just those with independent wealth

If so, what would that mean for society long-term, both economically and socially? There would be fewer poor people over all and I think this would have an impact on our monetary system and menial jobs getting done.

And if you believe that only the wealthy should reproduce, you are effectively asking rich, white, powerful men to police women’s reproduction.
That is exactly what is happening in parts of America right now.

Genuinely curious how people justify this way of thinking.

Ah like you projecting your narrative onto me to try to get me on "eugenics" and abortion? Like putting words into people's mouths when they don't fit the narrative or rise to your goading?

Good that you recognise it though

I was a teen in the 80s myself; it certainly didn't pass me by.

I was specifically talking about what I quoted: the post about being (paraphrasing) 'young dumb and in love and thinking a baby was a good idea and that a 16yo boy would get a job and support the family'

There's a big difference between that and 'getting caught out' accidentally.

Sorry that happened to you, but ALL parents should pay for substantial life insurance policies for just this reason.

And maybe not have both parents working for the same organization. Especially if the company also isn’t insuring them.

Risk management is an important consideration when deciding to have children. People need to think it through. Not just assume everything will be best-case scenario.

i work with a woman who was widowed last year at 43 but they are financially fine because they had a £500k life insurance policy on her and her husband both. Now she increased hers in case she dies and her sister has to raise the children.

Are you talking about Haredim Jewish?
😂

You're not advocating for forced abortion but you're opening lines are basically saying people on low incomes should be sterilised. I'm not interested in an abortion debate, imo women's rights to bodily autonomy isn't up for debate. But that goes for them being forced or pressured into contraception or sterilisation they don't want either. You are literally saying openly that people who are poor or low incomes, regardless of why, can't choose to have children if they want them. You can dress it up however you want but that's nothing but disguised eugenics and it's pretty disgusting. Some jobs are always going to be low paid..some people have conditions that means they can never work and will always rely on the state, and they are not entitled to a family the same as people better off to the point we should actually encourage them to be sterilised so accidents don't happen is what you're saying.

Eh? How is nursery costing 60k per year on a single income? Honestly mumsnetter appear to live in a different world 🤣🤣

Surely if a woman knows she's very fertile, common sense would say to use more effective contraception methods. It's about taking responsibility for yourself. Lots of different options these days for contraception.

A well functioning society is one that support young adults being the best parents they can be. That is likely to include financial support from those further established in life.

However, for society to continue to offer support, it needs those previous young adults to themselves become well established and self-sufficient.

What we are seeing though is the same young people reliant on support for so long (by having further children) that not only they never get into a position to support the younger, but continue to be a drain to society.

That's when society can't cope any longer.

Umm I used your own words back at you that you chose to stop at one, aren't exactly happy about it and that people should also be unhappy and not have children they want, is that projecting? Using your own words?
No projecting is preaching that women who you think should be on contraception regardless of their health or wishes and then fall pregnant unconsciously need your unelaborated on "targeted help" to ensure it doesn't happen again, because you're projecting some moral failure on them for falling pregnant because it hasn't happened to you.

It's an alternative to the current culture war - and works well in Nordic countries like Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, as well as Belgium, Denmark and France. Like with school, where people can choose home education or private schools, they can opt out and be a SAHP and/or pay for a nanny.
But we'd no longer need to argue about benefits culture or the costs of working to pay for nursey fees, which is off the scale (£2,500 for full time up thread!)

And yet so many manage it…it’s not an excuse to expect someone else to pay for you…

Ignorant of your expectations of lax immigrant policies to solve the dire problems of low birth rate society by attracting cheap labour from modern "colonies"?

Well, you stated it clearly, no one can be ignorant of your views now 😂

12 pages in and the genuinely curious OP hasn't got involved once 🙄

Omg are you actually really a woman? You don't KNOW how fertile you are FFS, but this is why some women more easily fall pregnant regardless of precautions while others glibly talk about using the pull and condoms for decades and never flaking pregnant ever(when they could be infertile for all they know) and insisting no one would ever have an accidental pregnancy if they just followed their methods..

Don't get sucked in. PP is an aggressive pro-lifer, you will be accused of eugenics etc. Best not to engage.

Sorry you've lost me, that thread was about a 16 year old continuing with an unplanned pregnancy not planning a pregnancy on that basis. If you've never seen a teenage pregnant girl think it's a good idea to continue and her boyfriend was absolutely gonna stay and support her, then you missed a hell of a lot of reality TV in the 2000s

My friend got pregnant with condoms so went on the pill pregnant again so had a coil got pregnant again used a different coil began having major medical episodes they believed were connected to the coil so they eventually removed it and were going to put another different coil in or implant put her on a different "better" pill in the meantime and she got pregnant again

These days she lives like a monk with a copper coil just in case before people scream she should have her tubes tied they won't do it because she is too young

And yes she works

I never said I wasn't happy. I'm very happy with 1 in fact I said so 🙄 No anger from me. You have projected yours on to me.

You have shocking comprehension skills and an obvious agenda.

Lmao check my post history, I am completely pro choice as late as necessary. The fact you're trying to paint me into being a to choice (please don't she the words prolife 🤢) because I believe in bodily autonomy across the board meaning women should be able to continue with any pregnancy they want as well with state support because you wanna advocate sterilising poor people is WILD.

Some people have conditions that means they can never work and will always rely on the state, and they are not entitled to a family the same as people better off to the point we should actually encourage them to be sterilised so accidents don't happen is what you're saying
No posters here has advocated that poor people should never have one child. The point is gave one, maybe two, but stick to that number, the same way people with more money are doing because they know that that is the best decision for their existing children. What is there to debate about this? That everyone should be Freetown have as many children as their heart desire and that it is right that it becomes the responsibility of society to make sure these additional children are not penalised?

I still don’t see the issue? 15 year olds think they’ve fallen in love and have a baby together tale as old as time. The only reason to be mad about it is the tax payers money argument but what 15 year old knows all about taxes?
@No5ChalksRoad holding it against someone that they were once young dumb and in love is batshittery

If they’ve already gone to the effort of using 2 condoms and the MAP then I think it’s highly unlikely that a termination would be “against their wishes”……

Perhaps you are unaware, but people emigrate from all over, not just (ugh) “colonies”.

How so? Are you saying that by consenting to use a condom or the MAP a woman is consenting to a termination? Do you even know the different between contraception and abortion?

Because the only way to enforce your 1-2 child limit in any real world sense in pretty fucking grim which is why no one wants to expand on how they think this should be done