To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

[reallyreallycrazy]

Slight hyperbole but not far off.

Yes, of course I suppose my DS should be appreciative of his 'white privilege' (I do detest the term though), but he's been applying to over 100 x spring & summer internships and apprenticeships.

Invariably, he finds that lots of programmes are only open to black/female/social mobility/ND candidates. In one recent case - a global consultancy - there were NO openings for anyone outside of these categories.

And today, on LinkedIn, he forwarded me several links from leading banks reaching out about apprenticeships etc. In most photos, you might be lucky to spot 1-2 white males and in the video of one, there were not a single white male (or female for that matter).

I get that these firms need to do outreach to disadvantaged groups but if you look at the population level percentage of the various group categories, this really has swung too far the other way.

I get that many of these organisations have years to catch up with diversity hires but to try to rebalance in such an aggressive way and in a short space of time, makes it very difficult for young, white males (unless they have qualified for 'free school meals') to get a foot in the door which is especially tough in an incredibly tough grad market as it is.

Did you not have peers doing this stuff at uni? Careers fairs etc?

@RubySquid@Pleasealexa yes I had friends who were going to do internships, and summer schemes and things like that - they had been to grammar schools, GDST schools and top boarding schools, their parents had been to university too. I was doing £5/hr jobs over the holidays to help pay my way - didn’t live in London, couldn’t afford summer rent as well. I knew about the milk round, but that was all investment banking (no thanks), accounting (no thanks) or consulting (applied but only had 2 interviews and no offers). I had a very limited understanding of the range of jobs and how I might fit in.

Yes I was super clueless but it’s not untypical of kids with my background. My parents (who left school at 15 and 17 with 6 O levels between then) suggested being a secretary or teacher - that was IT.

There’s a reason that the professions are dominated by people with a middle class background. It’s social replication. Whilst it was years ago for me - I’m early 50s now, it’s still happening. Have a look at https://www.socialmobility.org.uk/ - it’s a very pervasive issue.

I wish people on this thread would really read and think about this post rather than responding “but why didn’t you do this but why not that but GOOGLE” someone is telling you why they didn’t do it. You don’t need to find ways they could’ve been better. You asked the question and it was answered.

fwiw I was in the same situation and relate very much to the posters experiences

@Bambamhoohoo That’s a story of not wanting the jobs that offered internships! It’s not a story about not knowing they exist! She didn’t want the type of work on offer and others did. They were more ambitious. She didn’t avail herself of the opportunities she knew existed. She knew about them. So this is about ambition and decision making.

It’s probably also about “not for the likes of us”. Why let others go for the internships but you aren’t interested? If you don’t want something, fine, but no one else is to blame. These days they pay! They aren’t all in London. They are open to everyone - but not those whose default position is “no thanks” and cannot be bothered to apply. How come grammar dc do? They aren’t all well off. Why not follow and replicate them? Plenty of them are first in family to go to uni. My former neighbour’s dc for example. They managed to work out what to do!

I had no idea how my friends got internships. It wasn’t like they get offered around and you either say yes or no.

but I did think it would be more productive and tbh, respectful to just accept what people who have been there and done it tell you rather than argue with them.

It was 30 odd years ago for me. I sincerely hope that students these days ARE more informed. And yes I know that internships are now properly paid - as they damn well should be, young people without family money behind them couldn’t take them at the time which was not right.

I’ve wised up a lot since then - I have a senior job, very very well paid, working for a global firm with a big brand name. There was never anything “wrong” with me when I was 20 - I didn’t know any better at the time, I didn’t understand how the game worked, that’s all. I do a lot of career talks now and graduate recruitment, trying to explain that they too can change the script and are capable of much more than they think.

I just wish more bright but clueless working class kids when went to crap comprehensives could find their way through too. Academic attainment isn’t enough, that’s what I’m saying.

Academic attainment isn’t enough, that’s what I’m saying

It never has been so no change there. I came from an immigrant family, first one to Uni. Felt very much like an imposter as I sat with Grads who had privileged backgrounds. Yes it was intimidating but I wanted to succeed which really was the significant factor.

Interestingly the privileged grads often dropped out because they had other life choices and family money. I pushed through because frankly I didn't have a choice.

So now my dc might get the chance for opportunities because of the colour of their skin whereas a white working class lad wouldn't.

I think those older people (who struggled through) really need to see the detail behind these schemes as they have often been rushed out to tick a box without assessing the impact.

@Comtesse I agree that in a tough jobs market, academics isn’t enough. However it’s often the rural poor who suffer the most. No quick bus ride to a myriad of opportunities for them. We also have a society full of part time workers who don’t want full time jobs due to keeping benefits. This also world against young people who want a few hours part time. These jobs are getting difficult to find too.

Yes, I do feel that well informed young people from any background can and should access schemes to help with CVs. I found it interesting that DN of mine always was dead against an internship citing that they are slave labour. University educated parents but ill-informed and dogmatic. Some people will always cut off their noses to spite their faces and DN could not be bothered to contact DHs company and apply for a paid internship. So it’s not just about not knowing it’s about thinking you know it all too.

As an update, the big consultancy firms etc didn't in the end open up their spring insight weeks to outside that of diversity (gender, race) and SES applicants.

Many of the top grammar schools now have a very diverse hiring - or maybe you should say it's not diverse, with only 1-2 white students accepted this year.

I'm all for making sure underrepresented groups come to the fore, but I also think the market needs to be sensitive when they may have to dial back.

My DC is currently looking into work experience/placement/internship in the finance sector. So many are only open to those from deprived backgrounds. Very little room for those in the middle.

I fully agree. I also work in an organisation OP describes and don’t worry we are very much full of white men of all ages.

I think some of the targeted opportunities you’ve described are for short summer internships, not jobs. And where they exist there is also a main stream to apply to. The targeted schemes exist for a reason, clearly, given the actual statistics. I did think we’d gotten over the diversity hire myth…

It would be interesting to see the organisation you mention that excludes white men entirely, can you post it OP?

My last job was in a global bank that had an apprenticeship program for school leavers with high grades in the right A-Level subjects from a state school which is very near to the London office, and which is sponsored by that bank. In the borough where the school is based, only 44% of the population are white British. So the starting point would be an expectation that white boys are about one in five of the intake (22%).
HOWEVER... 47% of children in the borough live in low-income households, and white boys on free school meals are consistently the poorest-performing group at GCSEs - which means they're even less likely than their peers to even go on to A-Levels. So I would therefore adjust the expectation down and assume that significantly fewer than one in five of the intake to that particular scheme would be white British boys, just because of the local demographics, and nothing to do with any bizarre social-engineering project by HR.
The bank has all the usual grad schemes, and apprenticeships open to everyone, but the scheme for local kids is the one that gets the most publicity because it's good optics for any business to invest in the local community.

Its not my experience. When a company focuses on diversity, it means they've had too many white wealthy men through the door and they need balance. Women make up 50% of the world, and yet still dont make up 50% on a company board. I work in a global company, and we have some great representation of different nationalities, but still not enough to be representative of the company's global reach. As things get more fair, people like your son will feel like they are missing out, when really the plauing field has been levelled. No bank is going to hire someone just because they are a Black disabled woman. But, if that Black, disabled woman is as good as your son, she will get the job over him because too often in the past she will have lost out because she was Black, disabled and a woman.

I work in some places where I am sure I am the diversity hire. 😂

I agree with making sure you get underrepresented groups to apply. But in Finance, at least, there is a fairly set trajectory that includes spring weeks, summer internships and these then often convert to grad roles.

Most companies seem to have several schemes including a mainstream one.

Here is the list. I won't mention the company but you can probably work it out for yourself:

https://app.the-trackr.com/uk-finance/spring-weeks

You think that schools ask the ethnicity of the child as part of the application process and make decisions to offer places on that basis?

So, I worked as a first woman in my role within the company I stayed with for 10 years. There were plenty of women in the associate roles, but not as consultants.

However, I did not pursue my career as I chose to set up as an independent because I wanted to spend more time with my children. My choice.

I'm totally for women having the same opportunities (and salaries!) as men, but a lot of the time, women still make other choices for themselves.

No, of course not. But certain cultures are very happy to let their children work all hours to ace the exams. I'm just saying, that perhaps there needs to be outreach programmes to poor, white boys as these are often the least likely to progress. Unless you're arguing that Indian and Chinese children have higher IQs? That would be quite contentious...

Why would the poor boys have to be white to qualify? Their disadvantage is their poverty, not their race. So surely the target should be boys from families disadvantaged by poverty? I'm sure such schemes exist in fact. And that people complain about those too because they feel it disadvantages their own sons.

White males were not allowed to be hired in my last job without going through a lengthy senior exceptions process (large banking IT department).

I think US firms had to stop DEI legally, so perhaps worth looking at US multinationals?

There is no way on earth Admissions Law will be changed to enable discriminating towards children on the basis of ethnicity. You cannot ask the question prior to offer and acceptance for bloody good reason and even the names are removed from applications when rankings are finalised by the admissions authority, so there is absolutely no way of knowing an application is in respect of a white child, a black child, a Polish child, a child with one Han Chinese parent and one Korean or whether the child's family have been agricultural workers in Lincolnshire for the last 400 years.

Already happening for uni applications though, isn't it?

Of course they wouldn't have to be white, doh!

But these programmes tend to have the following 'options' for spring weeks:

• BAME
• BAME Women
• Socioeconomic status

So, yes they already look at race tbh.

I don't know what the 'doh!' is for unless it's directed at yourself for not being clear. You specifically suggested targeting poor WHITE boys. So naturally I assumed you meant targeting poor boys who are white.
Schemes targeting 'poor' people of all ethnicities already exist. They go off postcode to identify deprived areas and parental income. What do you think they mean by 'socio economic status' if not 'poor' as you call it?

This with bells on. You're doing your son no favours by encouraging him to blame his lack of success on diversity hiring. That's a bitter choice and not based in reality.

He needs to be more resilient and learn to handle disappointments and setbacks more healthily.