To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

[reallyreallycrazy]

Slight hyperbole but not far off.

Yes, of course I suppose my DS should be appreciative of his 'white privilege' (I do detest the term though), but he's been applying to over 100 x spring & summer internships and apprenticeships.

Invariably, he finds that lots of programmes are only open to black/female/social mobility/ND candidates. In one recent case - a global consultancy - there were NO openings for anyone outside of these categories.

And today, on LinkedIn, he forwarded me several links from leading banks reaching out about apprenticeships etc. In most photos, you might be lucky to spot 1-2 white males and in the video of one, there were not a single white male (or female for that matter).

I get that these firms need to do outreach to disadvantaged groups but if you look at the population level percentage of the various group categories, this really has swung too far the other way.

I get that many of these organisations have years to catch up with diversity hires but to try to rebalance in such an aggressive way and in a short space of time, makes it very difficult for young, white males (unless they have qualified for 'free school meals') to get a foot in the door which is especially tough in an incredibly tough grad market as it is.

I’m all for hiring the best one for the job tbh.

Childhood wealth is hard to measure a lot of it depends on the father all it takes is for him to leave for a well off family to become impoverished and vice versa say he comes back and the family are well off again. Or parents are in an on off relationship but dads the one with the good job.

Its not always black and white

Yes, I understand its the maximum you can EARN. That's what I've been trying to explain to you when you have repeatedly said a family has to have an INCOME of £7400 or less to qualify for FSM. I've been trying to get across the difference between income and earned income.
Your second comment is probably one for a different thread. Because whether children grow up in poverty because their parents have no incentive to work or not makes no difference to how disadvantaged they are by growing up in poverty, does it? And the schemes are aimed at the children not their parents.

Do you think 'the best one for the job' is so much more likely to be a white middle class male? Because if not, then how can the fact they are more likely to be in the jobs in some sectors be explained?

I work in a highly diverse environment. No one cares about your skin colour and we certainly don't screen for skin colour before reviewing a CV. Isn't that how it should also be?

Same where I work. In fact, it’s not just skin colour or race. We don’t care about gender or nationality (as long as you can legally work in the location you’re applying to) or sexual orientation or a myriad of other things. We care about potential and performance and demonstrating excellence both at work and outside of work. Amazing academics are never enough regardless of DEI you also need to demonstrate that outside of work you’re also special at what you do.

I work for a global bank (yeah I know, another one of ‘those’ on this thread), a very big name (obviously can’t say who) making billions every year. There are many things about my employer that piss me off (right now especially) but one of the things I absolutely love and that never fails to impress me is that almost every single person I work with in my global team (approx 700 across 4 continents) is incredibly smart but also has the “X factor”. They all have something in their background that you suddenly find out about from being a former international sportsperson to being a mountain guide to working in homeless night shelters for years to being a published author and it goes on and on. Almost everyone speaks multiple languages and/or has lived in a variety of countries. Quite frankly it blows my mind. This is also where the bar is set when we’re recruiting. So even at intern level, the exam question is what have done that demonstrates you’re special? Maybe this is something the OP’s son has fallen foul of but who knows?

Just to add, I’m a white female from working class background, small Northern village and a classic example of not knowing anyone in a corporate environment let alone banking when growing up. First in my family to go to uni (and be challenged by many family members about why I was doing A levels because I’m female) and all those other cliches. It’s only in recent years that some of my older family members have twigged that working in a bank doesn’t mean that I sit behind a glass screen accepting cash and cheque payments all day. 🙄

The current grad in my London team is a white male from quite a privileged background. But he is outstanding! Yes he’s made the most of his advantages but he is absolutely a person you would want to be in a senior role making decisions. Our most recent interns were all offered jobs and will be joining us as grads next year so 2 brown males, 1 white male. So it’s sounding a bit male dominated but actually that’s not an accurate reflection of my organisation. My reporting line is brown female>white female>brown male>white female>black female>white male. Yep, still a white male at the very top but times are changing and eventually that will too.

@Cloudeee Writing you are mixed race when you are not is clearly a lie. My DS is mixed race Chinese and white and clearly physically a bit of a mix.

DH has been involved with hiring for years. He once said nothing is written down but HR gets very questioning of shortlists that don’t have women on and it’s an unwritten rule.

Degree apprenticeships are ridiculously competitive. My DS did get accepted and has completed his. He does have outstanding grades and had a ref from the regional Officer of cadets for his outstanding leadership skills and cool head. He saved another cadets life at a military training camp. One friend did remark no offence but being mixed will have helped him get that place. I would like to that saving a life does make you stand out, it’s not just another DofE or grade 8 piano.

As I said in another comment the uk is majority white and men don’t take the pregnancy and breastfeeding career hit that woman do.
Is it really such a shock that the workforce represents that? I’ve seen antisemites say the same thing about Jews in Hollywood tbh and thats not acceptable but it’s fine to say it about white men?

I disagree with DEI requirements as much as the next person. But I don't just think it's all for diversity hires. People still hire for skill.

Its not a shock if a workforce proportionately represents wider society, no. White males are 45% of the UK workforce, so we would expect roughly 45% of top jobs and jobs in various sectors to be held by white males if it were to be representative. In some sectors and at some levels this is not the case, and White males represent a far higher percentage than would be expected.
I don't think its appropriate to compare something said about White men with something said about Jewish people. Being White and male does not of itself cause disadvantage and discrimination.

when it comes to top jobs it’s unrealistic to expect an even split between men and women, this is me being a realist not a sexist, when it comes to having children it’s us women who are pregnant and then breastfeeding. Of course it’s still possible but for those reasons it’s a lot harder and that’s just biology not discrimination

It doesn't bother me at all if white men are in the top jobs. The country is majority white and the men themselves are more career driven. That's why they earn more.

No one should be ashamed to a) be white and b) me a man.

I've never met one who was so I don't think you've much to worry about on that score.

Fair enough. Unfortunately for you (and fortunately for those who disagree with you) some employers clearly do see the problem with it. Possibly because many business and organisations can see they have much room for improvement and have sensibly decided to give other people an opportunity to see if they could do better. Frankly, in some cases, it would be hard to do worse.

That's good then. People should just hire on merit alone. If I ran a company I wouldn't bother measuring and tracking diversity metrics at all.

I'm sure they have their reasons. And I can't imagine for a moment that the reasons are to be kinder to POC and women, even if this poses a risk to the business by selecting people who are not 'the best'. In fact I think its ridiculous to expect people to believe that the leaders of industry and business would put kind and fair ahead of profit. If they're doing it, it's for a business reason.

Oh God. Yes let’s all forget decades of evidence that ‘merit’ is a completely subjective judgement.

It is illegal in the UK to discriminate based on race/ sex.

There are certain training and development opportunities aimed at supporting and helping people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get apprenticeships or jobs, because POC are still underrepresented in many industries.

If you believe that your son has been unfairly discriminated against because he is a white man then he is entitled to sue the company for race/ sex discrimination.

He will look pretty silly though if it turns out that the issue is that it's a very competitive market and that everyone, regardless of their background, is struggling right now.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/taking-action-about-discrimination/

Mixed race is an ambiguous term I have a friend who was raised by her Philippino grandma all her other grandparents are white. She looks white you would not know she’s mixed race but she is.

When my child started school I found myself getting rejected from every job I went for I was 20 and had no prior work experience or qualifications after being a teen mum high school drop out.
Then I put on an application I was mixed race and bisexual and straight away got the job and it’s a pretty cushty one considering my non existent cv.

Anyway could be a coincidence.

I’ll take ‘Things that didn’t happen’ for $500…

Believe what you want but I’m never putting that I’m white or straight on a form again

If someone is willing to hire someone with fuck all qualifications and experience because they’re ‘bisexual’ then that’s on them to deal with whatever the hell incompetent fool turns up for work.
As someone who IS actually gay, I can tell you that I and MANY more gay people I know would NOT declare that on any work form or job application because it is much more likely to discrimination than to getting the interview of job.
But as your little - ‘ I said I was a one legged, Muslim, lesbian and got a job as a top judge despite never even doing Law’ - comment show people are so ignorant they really won’t understand why gay people pass for straight or non- white people might find it easier to pass for white etc

I live in a small town with not much “diversity” it could be they have quotas to fill which would be much harder here or it could just be a coincidence either way I’m just telling you my experience. Also how old are you and your gay friends? I’m early 20s if you’re 40+ talking about your friends being discriminated fair enough it’s a different world now

Even for those taking a quota/ target/ tick box approach, companies are unlikely to have quotas to fill for sexuality.
That’s how it’s so clearly bullshit. Absolutely no one is scrambling to hire a bisexual person.

What country are you in? If US, diversity quotas are illegal. If UK, they are likely to be unlawful under the EA. So it would be very surprising if all the businesses in a random small town had for some reason decided to break the law in order to increase their diversity.

@5128gap It’s for an optics reason. You don’t want the criticism that you recruit identikit white people. So you shift perception of recruitment by apprenticeships and a certain number of interns being from the minorities you wish to encourage.

Recruiters should not ask about sexual orientation before employment and then it’s not standard as far as I know. Questionnaires are often by consent and not obligatory.