To think people should be able to discuss and debate how public money is used for disability and otuher benefits

[Eatinghurts]

there are for our country a number of competing things happening
desire to have a functioning society which supports everyone
rising goverment spending in part brought about by rises in diagnosids of conditions and an elderly and sick poppulation
shifts in disabilituy expenditure with tech AI etc.

debatoing this leads many to argue posters are ignorant of disability and othering on the othrside assuming disabled people and their families do not pay tax.
I would hope as adults we could maturrely explore this.

It has been discussed and debated many, many, many times on MN.

Of course people do debate it on MN.

What actual question would you like to debate OP?

oh here we go again, no sooner has one 1000 post thread ends than another one pops up.

Do tell me:

1. What system would you put in place which would cost less than the current system but ensure that the most vulnerable in society are not made to suffer?
2. Why it is people with disabilities and their families that you think need to address the financial incompetence of successive governments, rather than, say, tax dodgers or spending less in other areas?

Of course free speech should be a given, as long as it doesn't cross into hate speech. Unfirtunately, it often does.

Obviously, people have and can express opinions, but they're usually just that, rather than research-based and evidence-based. A lot of opinions are based on misinformation used to scapegoat and cause division and distraction, too (e.g. the media stirring ul a frenzy of attacks on disabled people in the 2010s as a distraction to scapegoat disabled people over the effects of "austerity").

This. Opinions are just that. Evidence is another thing entirely.

Is this a thread about the thread about the thread?

Thread about a thread.
Not allowed on here.

Yanbu. We should, of course, be able to discuss and debate all aspects of public spending. Luckily, I think people can and do discuss and debate such issues quite freely in our society.

Unfortunately, there can be a tendency for some people participating in such discussions to make very ablist statements or assumptions which others will inevitably find offensive, or to make claims which are based on ignorance and/or disinformation. That can be extremely distressing and hurtful for disabled people who are already struggling with the impact of their disability.

It would be so much easier to have meaningful and productive debates about these issues if everyone could take the time to inform themselves on the subject at least a little before making sweeping statements about things that they have no knowledge or experience of, and if they could try to approach matters sensitively, respectfully and without any ablism.

That's not too much to ask, I'm sure?

This is like when comedians use their Netflix specials to rant about how they've been cancelled and nobody can make jokes anymore.

I think its fine to discuss at a societal level what criteria we need set for accessing benefits and the intended purpose for those benefits.

I think its ridiculous to look at individuals and nit pic what they personally spend the money on and try draw wide spread conclusions from it. Especially from a place of ignorance about how the disability affects the individual, how the system is intended to operate and the current safeguards in the system.

It draws no useful conclusion.

That is what usually happens on threads about benefits.
The DWP themselves do not care how you spend the money they award you. But many MN posters think they know better and can judge and make shitty comments about it.... usually with cries about "as a tax payer", like it gives them free reign to be an ableist cunt.
The worst I saw on here was someone who posted that her DD with anorexia gets PIP. Someone asked why she gets PIP as she "has no food costs".
This is the sort of shit disabled people and their loved ones have to deal with on here.

Discuss, for sure.

But if you don't have the relevant facts at hand, as to what a benefit is for, how it is paid, what qualifies for that benefit, how the system works..

eg - people moaning that Motability users are getting fancy cars and this shouldn't be allowed, because they're under the delusion that this costs the government more than someone having a basic cheaper vehicle, as they are unaware that the user pays up front an advanced fee, which is either out of their own pocket or from the Motability charity grant, and then the weekly cost is the same no matter what car they have, and that this bolsters the car industry massively, or that it is the car manufacturers who determine if a car is available via motability or not...

Then any discussion just becomes pointless twattery, with people blarting random, incorrect ideas and opinions based on them.

I've checked with MNHQ and it's "threads about threads that have been deleted by MNHQ" rather than "threads about threads".

Well, that is not confusing at all 😆

Yup! Or people who have neighbours who don't work and are on over £1k of PIP a month (which is impossible) that spend all day every day talking about benefits in their garden, hence why someone knows what they claim.
Or they have a Jaguar on the Motability scheme. I don't think so. Or someone had a "free luxury car" for being a tiny bit anxious.

Too many people watching shite TV about benefit claimants, or reading the Daily Mail.

The problem is it just descends into loads of posters insisting they know someone who fraudulently claims
Or posters deciding for themselves which disabilities think should be eligible.

It feels that any discussion of PIP or DLA automatically results in people assuming people are being abelist.

the current system in no way accountsfor the costs of a multiple and complex imparement and yet people report using it for treats.

norgaige compammies will use PIP as income without also increasing expenditure by a disability related ammount.

i dont knowhowyou legislate for thisbut know a blind man who’s wife stops his pip to be used for anything legitimate eg buying food from coop with braille packaging, meta glasses, braille displays 3d printed pictures connected to a hobby and instead just used for family costs. Yes this individual works and claims blind persons tax aowance.

No, it is not assuming people are abelist. Some people are abelist. Look at any thread on here about benefits.

@Fearfulsaints what safegards do you think stop disabled people being financially abused by their families. I havre personally refferred cases to SS in a volenteering capacity where costs have been sited as reasons not to byy equipment which would allow them to cook. Ss response is no care act eligible vcare need so wont investigate.

I have read most of the last thread on this (couldn't see a second one?)

One of the things which came up a lot was people arguing that instead of cash, those eligible for DLA/PIP should be given vouchers rather than cash.

Genuine question, if these specific benefits are to help with a disabled person's additional care/mobility needs, which stores/types of retailers would you propose the vouchers could be spent?

I have a friend who claims PIP for bipolar. She uses it for private therapy. Her therapist is in the US and they do their sessions over Zoom. I doubt her therapist would be able to accept vouchers if they were a thing.
And would therapy be time limited? Would you only get vouchers for say, 6 months?

In what way is it not being debated and discussed right now? There are threads about it on MN all the time. What is it that you would like to see that isn't there now?

@pointythings Any discussion seems to result in people.being called abelist and little actual exploration of what a disability means. Does accessto kindle make it easier for print disabled people to access text i think undoubtedly yes. Does ipad communication apps reduce costs again yes. Can it be difficult now we use touch screens often without accessibility features again i would say yes.

@Littlegreenraindrop i dont see how vouchers work howdo youquantify extra costs of deliveries cause popping to the shops is hard, branded foods for arfid.

i do think simmilar to access to work disabled people may at points benefit from justifying costs of their disability.

suggestions to means test arre abhorant to me verry high earners can suddenly face a disability.

It's not that discussion is wrong, it's the lack of listening to the people actually living it. We tell you the impact disability has on our/our children's lives and we're pretty much told we're wrong and/or unreasonable.

It's not easy to get DLA. We're not raking in benefit money, we're considerably worse off financially, alongside stressed and exhausted about the now and extremely worried about the future. It's not easy to get help from CAMHS, so we do have to pay for counselling for our suicidal autistic DS. How would vouchers with limited options on where to use them help us find and buy shoes that DS can tolerate? And yes, we've taken him for days out using the DLA for things to do with his special interests, we're averaging once a year so a small proportion, but he doesn't have a social life, doesn't have friends, it's a small thing that brings him happiness.