To choose this secondary school?

[ThatRareQuoter]

My nearest secondary is Ofsted 'Outstanding' and gets amazing results -way above average. It's progress 8 score is also really high. It's 10 minutes walk away, great facilities and my DD's friends will all be going. People move to the area specifically for this school. Sounds like a no brainer right?

However, my DD doesn't think she wants to go and I'm not sure it's the right school for her. This is because:
-It's incredibly strict - they are unapologetic about this. Very strict uniform policy, very easy to get a detention etc.
-It felt very corporate at the open day. I didn't like the head at all. Made little effort to sell the school other than boast about its results.
-The speeches by the kids felt insincere/scripted
-There isn't much emphasis on pastoral support
-Communication between the schools and parents is known to be pretty poor. They tell you how it is - it's not a two way street. Confirmed by many parents.

Lots of parents seem to forgive the school all this due to it's results.

Alternatively, we have another school a bus ride away, which she should get into. On paper it is very much a poor relation. Much weaker results and progress 8 score (although above national average in both cases), and a much higher proportion of disadvantaged kids. Ofsted 'good' .

BUT, going round it we both really liked it!

-Great site - lots of space and excellent facilities
-The head tried really hard to sell it to us and interacted well with parents after his talk (no sign of the head at the other place - she was out of there like a shot)
-A welcoming feel. We were taken round by two lovely year 9s who spoke very candidly
-Lots of emphasis on pastoral support and transition for year 7
-Wellbeing hub with sensory rooms and counsellors (my DD has autism so this is important)
-The kids looked happy and engaged

We don't know anyone with kids at school 2 so it feels like a gamble. Plus getting there would be a bit of a pain. AIBU to choose it as our first preference? Has anyone else just gone with their gut rather than the obvious choice on paper?

Nothing wrong with being strict - that's probably WHY it is a good school! Will teach children that they need to respect rules and prepare them for adult life. I'd go for school 1.

School 2 hands down given your DDs needs and feelings.

Go with the school whose ethos you like best. I'd go for school 2.

I would speak with the SEN department of school one before writing it off. Our school is the same and I was nervous it wouldn’t be suitable for DC2 but I was impressed with the provision, their results for K coded kids is excellent which is what matters to us.

I would also value the strictness, I think the behaviour within schools is one of the fundamental reasons for poor quality education in this country (alongside funding) so I would try to find out what behaviour is like in the second school.

Outstanding schools don’t need to sell themselves.

i’d be more concerned about your DD having autism and what their SEN support is like.

open evenings often bear very little resemblance to what the school is like day to day (and I’m an ex secondary teacher so I know!)

Schools with good behaviour can be because they have an excellent approach to it. Or, more commonly, because children who struggle to conform don’t attend in the first place or are managed out very quickly. This often drives better results as poor behaviour can be an academic barrier or can be a result of poorly managed SEN.

From your description of school 1 id be very concerned they are essentially selecting their students to through rigid behaviour policies.

So in terms of SEN, reviews from parents of kids with SEN at school 1 are mixed. Some say they've been good, others say it's been very hit and miss - having to chase for adjustments to be put in place for example. I have spoken to the Senco and wasn't very impressed. For instance, I said my DD struggles with school uniform on some days due to sensory needs. The Senco said that allowances can't be made on uniform - they are very strict on that.

School 2 - they said all the right things about SEN and there was lots of talk about being an inclusive school. But I have nothing else to go on really. Kids wear PE kit on PE days and the Senco said PE kit any day my DD is struggling would be fine. However, the Senco is young and therefore probably inexperienced?

In terms of behaviour - how would I find this out about school 2? I literally know no one there.

For reference - I've seen both schools in the evening and on tours during the day. Interestingly, all the classroom doors were shut in school 1 so I didn't see any classes in action. Whereas we could freely observe classes in school 2 and speak to staff. It was all much more open.

All classes in both schools were quiet and listening to the teacher

I would just focus on that. Most of what is advertised is the experience of the ‘typical’ child, so I would focus on the experience of the SEN child. You should be able to find out from the school how their pupil premium, k coded, EHCP etc pupils did and how they focus on their progress. That’ll be more useful to you than the stats on school checker.

Secondary is a big move, I went with the nearest school that most of my DDs friends were going to. Having her primary school friends helped her settle in, and she's loved it. This came before Ofstead or feel of the place. I went to a different school to all my primary school friends and was bullied, I felt DD going up with her friends might help, and it did.

Put it as your first choice if that’s what you feel. Then put the first one as second choice. Then if you don’t get in the first, it’s fate. You won’t be disadvantaged putting it down second. The school doesn’t know where you put it.

School 2 without a doubt. Your daughter is autistic and going into the difficult teen years, pastoral support all the way. Saying there’s no leeway on uniform when they have to make reasonable adjustments under the equality act is a big red flag too.

Omg I have written and deleted this thread about 3 times in the last week.
Am having exactly the same dilemma. For us school 2 is 1/3 of the size of the other schools in our area which i think will help my dd.
Following with interest. Thanks OP.

I'm a secondary teacher with an SEN child at a school out of Borough - because it was the one I had a gut feeling would fit.

School 2.

I’m wondering if we looked at the same school as I went to see an outstanding school that I hated.

The head was arrogant and scoffed at a child that was brave enough to put his hand up and ask a question in a hall full of adults. All he wanted to do was compare his results to the other schools in the area. He also denied that children needed any help with mental health. In previous years he’s point blank refused to answer questions about Sen in his talk.
I’ve been trying to unpack the visit since I left because the vibe I got from the school seemed at such odds with the ofsted report.

The children get no choice in subjects for GCSEs which seems madness to me.

Despite all of this the school is one of the hardest schools in the borough to get into.

I’m sending my kid to the good rated school as I got such a lovely vibe from it. His mental health and him enjoying the rest of his childhood is more important to me

School 2.

My autistic daughter choose a school similiar to school 1 and it’s far from right for her.

Any school where the SENCO said they couldn’t make adjustments to uniform for SEN would be enough to rule it out for me. They’re legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments so SEN pupils aren’t disadvantaged - uniform adjustments is an example the gov gives of this. So either they are unaware of the law here, which is not great for a SENCO. Or they are fully aware but like to dissuade SEN students from attending. Either way, I’d have no desire to deal with them.

You've seen the schools. You sometimes end to follow your gut.

• look at the progress 8 and results for your DDs demographic (high, mid or low achievement, and girl). Some schools are better at bringing up low achievers and some are better at stretching high achievers.

• catch the bus at school run times. Great way to see how the pupils behave.

It sounds as if you're lucky to have two nice schools on your doorstep, so I would just let your dd choose.

In this situation: I’d go for school 2. I don’t think I’d worry about the lack of primary school friends:lots of kids will not know anyone and old friendships often (quite painfully) bust apart for girls in y 7:8:9 as they grow and change and have a wider choice of new friends. Also a 20 min bus journey is fine - let’s say 15 mins waiting for a bus? And 5 mins to walk home from bus stop? That’s shorter than the walk my dd does to and from school every day!

Progress 8 is a good measure but it’s an average - it doesn’t tell you how good this school will be for your child.
Trust your instincts.

Both my DD's went to a school similar to school A, the discipline and pushing them was exactly what they needed, however it sounds like it might not be right for your DD, I think as a parent you know best what they need to do well at school, one size doesn't fit all.

School 2

I have ASD as well. The secondary school I went to wasn't the best academically (by far) and was rated OFSTED good at the time. But the strong pastoral support and SEND team was what got me through the challenges of senior school. I wouldn't have gone anywhere else. There's far more to life than exam results

OP, a sort of similar situation happened to me. We applied for an academic school for my twins: DS1 went there, full of supportive and mostly MC parents, great results. However, they didn't get in and ended up in school with bad results, mostly due to the area/ type of kids that went there, v white working class. We were gutted. Anyway, my DC have thrived there, discovered pastoral care and encouragement/expectations of kids very high. Both my DC grew in confidence, partly because they were top of their cohort. Both did a lot better in exams than DC1 AND were happier! So, although it wasn't directly a choice, it worked out brilliantly for us. And I regret not sending DC1 there even though his school was 'better' on paper.

I’d definitely go with school two. A school unwilling to accommodate reasonable adjustments is not a place to send your child.

So, school 1 has a well established reputation and gets better results. School 2, is above average, gets good results and is trying hard, plus you get a good feeling!

School 2 without a doubt. For a start, it's probably more ambitious and will be trying harder.

We have similar situations with schools here. We went with School 2. Good choice. And I can tell you that one thing I found is that the results might not be quite as good, but I'm almost certain that's a factor of families with children who are more academically able etc, self selecting to go to the "better" school. Certainly, I have not noticed any difference in the quality of teaching etc vs the other schools based on what friends are experiencing. We have not regretted it. And I love that the students are more diverse in every way - ethnicity, socio economic background, focus etc.

We chose school 1. She moved to school 2 in Y9, pretty broken by that point. They have a completely different level of understanding of her needs.

Progress 8 scores tend to be higher in affluent catchments. I believe this is partly because students in these catchments get on average a lot more help from outside school - tutoring, parental input - which then gets captured in Progress 8 and the school gets the credit. A high progress 8 score does not mean an individual, untutored child will get higher grades than they would elsewhere.

Children at our school 2 do get fewer legs-up. No work experience for example, fewer trips, fewer have music lessons, play in the local youth orchestra, do D of E or scouts, and definitely less tutoring. I'm sure fewer will go to top unis etc. But for my child.. . I don't think she could thrive in either place TBH, but she got a lot closer to it at school 2 and it was the better choice for her.