Are the majority of men good guys?

[Musings32]

(nc incase outing)

There was a discussion in my place of work today which has really got me thinking. Some of the men in work were talking about how the vast majority of men are really good men, treat women well, step up properly as fathers and husbands and are completely dedicated to their families and kids etc and it's only a small minority of men who aren't or who justify abuse/ cheating/ not parenting presently enough or act in otherwise disrespectful ways towards their spouse/ family/ women.

I was actually really surprised at how many of the women in work agreed with them because I would have said the majority of men tend to let women and children down in lots of ways and can be really harmful or unreliable.

Personally I haven't had good experiences with a lot of men throughout my life and my marriage taught me that you can think you really know and trust someone and still not know what they are actually capable of- that someone can love you but still be profoundly selfish and justify anything to themselves. I also work in a field where I see the worst of people in general a lot of the time, and it's noticeable that male violence and abuse tends to be more prevalent. I then thought maybe my own experiences and line of work are skewing the picture so I thought I'd poll it to see what others think, maybe to either (hopefully) give myself a reality check or to know I'm not crazy!

So:
YABU I believe the majority of men are "good" men
YANBU I believe "good" men exist but are in the minority

I think most women take the opposite view, but in a group full of men insisting misogyny isn't a problem, they're unlikely to say so.

Good men exist, but they're rarely the ones sitting in the workplace banging on about what good men they are, and implying feminism has ruined women. Genuinely good men let their actions do the talking.

@Midnights68

Well, 97% of women report having been sexually harassed. The question is what percentage of men are responsible for that.

I'd imagine it would follow the 80-20 rule so maybe 20% of men causing 80% of the harassment. I think it's called the Piretto rule and seems to work for most things. A bloke who harasses women won't just be harassing one woman, they'll be at it constantly, so one bloke could well be responsible for dozens if not hundreds of individual cases of harassment to different women.

I may be naive, but I still think the majority of males have been brought up "properly" to respect women and not harass them and have a moral compass. I certainly havn't felt particularly harassed in my numerous workplaces or social occasions in my 40+ years of being an adult. Obviously, yes, some instances, which is almost inevitable, but very few and most I'd class as males being a little bit "over enthusiastic" in chatting up or trying their luck who quickly back down and bugger off when they get the "vibes" from me that I wasn't interested! Certainly never felt frightened nor threatened.

No I don’t. I don’t even really trust the ones who seem nice as half the time it’s an act. Not denying they exist but most men are inherently flawed in my view, and they try less hard to self improve. I hope this changes through time and with the next generation.

I don't know whether the majority of men are good guys or not. I know I love my wife I just don't know if she loves me. We have been married 25 years and there isn't anything I would not do for her. I buy her anything she wants and would do anything she asks if me She has not had to work for the last 20 years and that is ok. We have 2 boys who have not always been easy. I have had to work a job that pays very well but it is very long hours and I hate everyday. She has had a lovely life she has good friends and good times She looks great of course because she has the time to look after her self. I look awful and hate the way I look. She's doesn't say anything but it's obvious she thinks that too. But what next?

Ask the question from a different perspective - are the majority of women good ladies? And think about the answer from a man’s internet forum. What do you think the answers would be?

And would reality differ from both sets of answers?

Some of the men in work were talking about how the vast majority of men are really good men, treat women well, step up properly as fathers and husbands and are completely dedicated to their families and kids etc I think this here is part of the problem. Men aren’t being ‘good men’ because they don’t lie, cheat or beat their wives and they parent their children. That is a basic minimum. They don’t get extra points for doing things that they should be doing as standard. Do women get called ‘good women’ because they don’t cheat on their husbands and they do the school run? Of course they sodding don’t. There’s more to being a ‘good’ partner than simply doing your share of the basics.

I know a few men who are outwardly respectful of their wives, who don’t cheat and who prioritise their family over their own personal interests. I also believe that, in the right circumstances, every single one of them have the potential to say something or express an opinion that would change my opinion of them forever more, or that they would choose not to call out a friend or colleague for making a disgusting comment.

I think the answers would be that the majority of women are terrible.

Do you think that’s because they genuinely are terrible? Or could it be because men have been socially conditioned to believe that a woman doing 90% of running the home, 90% of raising the children and 50% of bringing in the money is just what women do. So when those women have had enough and decide they’re not interested in putting up with that level of crap anymore, this comes as a terrible shock to said men, who then become convinced that their exes are the devil incarnate, that they did ‘everything’ for her because they babysat the dc once a month so she could see her friends and she repaid them by leaving them. Do you think men who are married to women doing the lion’s share of the work appreciate just how much they’re getting away with?

I was going to say similar.

I think the men’s definition of a “bad woman” and a women’s view of a “bad man” will look very different.

Men will complain they don’t get enough sex, they’re being nagged, that they don’t get enough time to partake in their hobbies, that they’re expected to show interest in things that don’t interest them (like the kids’ school plays). They’ll be unhappy because they are expected to keep the house tidy and share the mental load. And if they split, they’ll moan about not being able to afford a new house because they have to pay loads of maintenance to their ex because she’s a gold-digger - but what that actually means if they have to contribute a paltry amount to the upkeep of the children they helped create.

Women complain about domestic violence, sexual assault, being groped by men in public, being sexually harassed or intimidated. Of being coerced. Of male bosses being sleazy and sexist but not being able to say anything as there’s no proof and they need to keep their job. They complain about rampant misogyny in society - of men not taking the views of women seriously. Women complain f not being paid the same as men despite doing the same job, if being passed over for promotion. Patriarchal society squashes women in every direction but few men stand up against it -because it suits them. Further along the scale women complain that they are working, doing the bulk of the housework, most of the childcare, and all of the mental planning. Men show up if they’re told to but given the choice opt out of anything they don’t want to do because they know the woman will pick up the slack.

The things that women are held collectively responsible for pales into significance when compared to the collective misdemeanours of men.

Look at Gisele Pelicot. Look at the popularity of Andrew Tate et al. Look at how many men queued to have sex with Bonnie Blue. Look at the recent documentary about the Met.

You can’t even begin to compare men and women or suggest that they’re as bad as each other.

As we often say, it’s not all men but it’s always a man. Always.

And lots of us are just bloody sick of it.

Yep, in real life the only men I know who always complain about women being terrible are absolute arseholes who treat women like shit and then suffer some consequence for that such as being dumped or a harassment order, doesn't stop them from constantly chasing new women though....

Thanks for your answers. Amongst my friends, we all have a healthy respect for women and will call out the kind of male behaviour you describe when they see it. We’re not perfect, obviously, though I would hope we’re thought of as good guys.

Of heterosexual men, I would instinctively say about:

10% are absolutely criminal - knowingly abusing, assaulting, controlling, or raping - while showing a sanitized face to the world to evade justice.

The next 20% are actively entitled and unfair actors who couldn’t give a toss about their partners’ wellbeing- take what they can get and manipulate - lying, cheating, dominating, verbally abusing (also criminal of course, but more deniable/more easily dismissed by them and others). while using charm to reel women in. They will rape, if they find themselves with the opportunity, but may well tell themselves it wasn’t rape, because the woman wasn’t screaming no multiple times. They will ignore their parental and household duties- doing the 5% that gives them deniability and maintains their social status and self image. They have an ill-contained pride in being this way. It makes them big as men.

The next 60% try to be decent guys and think they are. But they have aspects of misogyny, and/or will turn to mistreating, dominating women if the circumstances lead them there. They also blindly and happily do it in smaller ways, like mansplaining, or talking over women on a daily basis, while having the basic rhetorical gestures of respectful communication. They will listen and interact with their partner in a caring way a decent proportion of their time. They are the ones who can sustain relatively happy marriages for 15 years, maintaining a 70-30 split in household tasks- just enough to seem decent within this misogynist world….. then blindside their hardworking partner by leaving them for a younger woman. They make effort to stay in touch with their children, feeling good that they pay some maintenance and pick them up on some weekends. These guys are basically innately ok humans, but are not truly invested in righting the system, because it is ultimately comfortable for them. They will cheat, but tell themselves it meant something deep, and they aren’t really that kind of guy.

The final 10% are truly cognizant that we live in a patriarchy and actively keen not to be part of that. They will slip up some times, because it seeps into every aspect of our culture. But when you point it out, they genuinely listen and act on feedback. They will actually sacrifice their needs and preferences for yours at least half the time. They have a values- based position on not cheating and will hold themselves accountable and use their own self discipline to enforce that for themselves. They do it, they don’t just talk about it. They will invest in communicating and listening when Relationship problem comes up. They take adult responsibility for their children’s physical and emotional care, who know they are loved and safe around him and can rely on him always to be there. They will actively try to make the right choices through life based on ethics and who they want to be, and not getting ahead thanks to misogyny is part of those values. They are decent grown ups not only when it’s easy but when it is hard.

Yes I think this explains what I was probably struggling to articulate as to why its not a fair comparison to the pp who asked earlier. Obviously abusive women exist and there's no denying that, but I do believe "bad" men have a greater capacity for greater harm than "bad" women and that creates a real imbalance and is probably what leaves us setting the bar lower than where we should set it.

Thanks everyone for the replies so far, lots of good food for thought.

It seems from what most people have posted that there is always an extra for a man to perform to be classed as a good man.

It is not enough to just go about his life, not annoying, raping or abusing.
He must also be doing something else that proves that he is a good man.

Must be a hard way to live knowing that in some people's eyes you will never be "good" enough.

Is this an extra or an equitable baseline in comparison to the standards expected of women though?

Maybe, but I've never been involved with any. IME even men who have seemed nice and kind and fun at first, have turned out to be selfish and lacking in empathy.

I've only just realised at my age (50) I can't change them

Sad to say it but I think really good men are in the minority but I don’t necessarily hold them to blame, I think it’s a societal situation.

Lots have been brought up to think women are inferior to men, and to think women are there for their enjoyment. It’s hard to break that pattern.

My own husband treats me well day to day, but there’s no denying he’s lazy and I think at the back of his mind thinks any jobs he does around the house are “helping” rather than playing an equal role.

He doesn’t outwardly objectify women or treat them with disrespect but he watches porn which means in his head he’s doing so.

I’ve reached the conclusion that many men are the same, some are just better at controlling it than others.

All we can do is try and break the pattern. I know with my own DS I’ve brought him up to see women as strong equal partners and he certainly seems to treat his partner with respect. He is very domesticated and does all the cooking along with equal chores when he’s with her (having been away at uni for years has been good practice). Obviously I don’t know what goes on in his head but I hope he respects women.

When I think of the men I know, family, friends, colleagues, the vast majority are just normal good people, all great present dads.
It’s just hearing about the wider world… men cause most of the bad shit in this world. Just got to remember it’s not all of them.

I agree. Most of the men I know are perfectly fine, respectable, faithful, etc. That includes DH, my father and FIL, brother in law, brother, various friends of DH, work colleagues, and past serious boyfriend. I'd happily spend time with all of them and not feel threatened nor uncomfortable.

Of course, I know some dodgy ones through friends of friends etc who've been abusive and/or unfaithful and/or lazy and/or unpleasant etc. But it's a real minority. The "closest" one who is a sleeze who I try to avoid is my nephew - heaven knows how he "turned" as his father and grandfathers are perfectly respectable and behave morally, but he's almost feral, i.e. criminal record, string of broken relationships, 4 kids by 4 different women, etc., yet he has no problem getting new girlfriends as he plays the big "he man" image which apparently makes women go weak at the knees! (And he knows it so plays them!).

So that's basically one out of say a dozen or more.

I think most men are "OK". A minority are what I would consider "good". A larger minority are what I would consider "bad".

I've never heard a woman in real life expressing the distrust, dislike and disdain for men that we regularly see on Mumsnet. I don't think it's because the people I meet in real life would be embarrassed to say it .

Obviously people have their ups and downs in relationships and we can't minimise the existence of crimes against women but still I think if you feel you have an interesting opinion on men, it's not going to be that you think they are all wonderful.

If you go to the bother of expressing an opinion it's because you feel you need to warn others or you are surprised because you've had a horrible experience or you actually do think all men are rapists. Which just isn't true.

Nearly half of all mothers must have raised , or be raising, sons and to think they would classify their sons like this is a shocking thing to imagine.

It should be a equitable baseline to both sexes to be a good person.
then the rest are add ons because not everyone has a partner, or spouse, or child/ren.

So good person, same for everyone
then good person + partner
then good person + partner or spouse
then good person + partner/spouse + parent

You can go further with co-parent, step parent, grand parent etc. all of these have different requirements that are different or add ons from a basic good person.

Just an edit but how do people know that "most" men are bad?
I can pretty much guarantee that most men go under the radar of the women posting on this and the many other threads, they go about their daily lives not being a bother to anyone,. how can that be bad?

That’s interesting because I think it’s the opposite actually.

I think a man that does less than the bare minimum often gets plaudits simply because our expectations of men are so low.

In contrast, a woman needs to be some kind of superhero to get recognition because we expect women to behave better in virtually every respect.

I've never heard a woman in real life expressing the distrust, dislike and disdain for men that we regularly see on Mumsnet.

Nor have I.

And I wonder if those women feel the same contempt for their sons.

My DH is a “good man” by society’s standard, mainly because he desperately wants to be seen as a good man.

To be seen as a good man he tries to behave like one, but the male entitlement society has baked in to him since birth shows through regularly. His default thoughts are absolutely for himself rather than kids/family. It is a subtle thing, but it comes out in little ways. He thinks about how he would like to contribute/help whereas like doesn’t come in to it for me; I have to do whatever it is that needs doing, whether I like it or not!

He is clean, helpful, polite, non-violent, good job. Absolutely one of the good guys. But ultimately more self-centred than the majority of women in the same position as him.

I don't think anyone is solely good or bad. I think men are socialized /groomed into misogyny, which is obviously bad.