To wonder when Americans lose their roots

[categorychaos]

Curious to know (especially from US Mumsnetters) but when do Americans stop referring to themselves as having heritage from where their forefathers came from?

Whenever I read a bio on someone famous reference is often made to their roots - so for example German, French, Scots, Irish, French, etc..

Along with a fair number of people I have heritage stretching back to different cultures/places but after a few generations I would not refer to myself as Irish or French and it wouldn't tend to crop up anywhere outside of genealogy

Is there a reason they do it so much in the USA or am I mistaken in that assumption?

Partly because English immigration/colonisation was a couple centuries ago, and partly because it's not as distinct from American identity as others, especially in language and religion. Whereas a lot of Americans have Irish or Polish or Chinese etc grandparents or relatives they personally knew, the connection is a lot closer. I grew up in the 80s and even then when we visited elderly relatives everyone was speaking Polish, eating Polish food etc. I think it's a bit rude for Brits to sneer that my family today would call themselves Polish American.

What’s funny is that so many Irish emigrate. Does anyone tell them that their children will never ever be considered Irish (but someone who literally arrived last week is ‘more Irish than the Irish themselves!’)

Honestly funny

My English great aunt (who I never met) was born on the SS Nova Scotia - her birth certificate lists her place of birth as 'Atlantic Ocean'. By the logic of some, she's Fish-English.

No, I'm not being serious.

True story though - they named her after the boat

It's intrinsic to Americans' view of themselves. It's central to the American myth.

I'm married to one, and they bang on about it endlessly - the German roots, the Spanish eyes, the Lancashire..er...something or other. And, to be fair, their accumulated family narrative is a lot more interesting than mine. Which is London preceded by London. And more London before that. Oh, and some Somerset. And then a lot more London. It's quite dull, and does not make for interesting wedding conversation.

But all Americans have a story, and they hear it from birth and it means something to them. They never let it go, despite the fact that they would not only be incapable of finding Dublin on map, they couldn't even confidently point at the UK. But no matter - baby Wayne has two very pale freckles to the left of his nose and that's the Irish in him. Yep, that's O'Connelly, for sure. Or at least the one sixty-fourth of his DNA that's O'Connelly.

To be fair the only people I've EVER heard describing themselves as 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' are American.

Does your husband know you think all Americans are stupid and tedious?
Honestly, why are people so sneery.

I don’t think that about all Americans.

I do think this aspect of American identity, while understandable, is overemphasised. But as I said, the reason I don’t do it myself is that my equivalent is dull.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Irish people are entirely comfortable with living outside of Ireland, the huge Irish diaspora etc, yes. My own child was born in London.

We’re also comfortable (apart from an inevitable fringe of racist malcontents) with the fact that Ireland is now a destination for immigration, as well as a source of emigration to elsewhere.

My nephew, born to an Irish father and a Russian mother and growing up in Berlin, will have a different relationship to Irishness to my goddaughter, born in Ireland to a Polish father and a Nigerian mother, and to me (born in Ireland to Irish parents). And someone who grew up in Idaho with a granny who left Oughterard in 1871 will have a different relationship to Irishness again.

But all Americans have a story, and they hear it from birth and it means something to them. They never let it go, despite the fact that they would not only be incapable of finding Dublin on map, they couldn't even confidently point at the UK

How is this not saying all Americans are dumb and tedious

It's saying that this aspect of American self-identity isn't really supported, in most cases, by a real interest in the cultural and geographical backstory it implies.

Whether or not it's tedious depends a lot on the teller.

That Americans are not familiar with a world map is pretty well established. And that's because it doesn't feature really in the American educational curriculum. They're not stupid. But most are underinformed in this specific area of geography.

I think what I struggle to understand with this kind of mentality though, is how you pick which of your great great (etc) grandparents to foreground. Why cherrypick your Scottish ancestor when, once you’ve gone back a few generations, you’re got 16 or 32 people to choose from?

To me it feels like people are carefully curating a narrative, or particular identity. Like choosing to emphasise your Irish ancestors rather than the many German, Swedish or whatever ones, as you like the idea of Irishness more than the others.

Who is 'they' who 'hates you and never attempts to hide it'?

Tbf that may have been because he was unwell ☹️

Yes. I think this too. I mean you'd hardly identify with great great grandad Sam who kept 2 slaves would you? Of course it's been picked and chosen carefully.

I wonder how "Scottish" your own language is.

My ancestors came from the Gaidhealtachd, and I don't speak Gaelic. I do however, have a decent vocabulary in Scots for an American, although I certainly don't try to go around speaking it. I do enjoy reading Scots-language literature.

They may or may not identify as Irish. They will decide that one but they’ll not be accepted as Irish by the locals. As other posters have observed.

Good point - that's where the 'it's because it's a relatively new country for settlers'/immigrants' descendants' falls flat. NZ & Oz also are, but they don't have the same thing of being Irish-Australian or Scottish-NZ etc

What makes US different? As possible have said, one factor would be the ethnic enclaves like NY for Jewish & Italian immigrants, Chicago for Poles etc

Jewish Americans typically may have a more recent connection, given that Jews emigrated en masse to US around the turn of the 20th century, and Asian Americans mainly more recently than that.

What I find a little harder (though not much) to understand is people like the Irish, Scots, Cornish etc whose connection dates back to 18th or early 19th century. I understand it was preserved strongly in enclaves though.

I know that.

Doesn't like living on the continent for at least 15, 000 years (some say closer to 20, 000 or even 30, 000) count for anything though ?

Tbf also Ireland hasn't had birthright citizenship for some time, while US still does- though I understand the significance and meaning of it is debated.

Tbf a few people might like the idea of slaves, judging by the way some billionaires act...

And obviously the Founding Fathers & others are admired despite owning slaves. It might depend what else the ancestors had done..

The mass Irish immigration was mid 19th to early 20th century, not that different from Jewish immigration. In both cases highly concentrated communities which helped preserve identity.

Even in the 1980s in an east coast city, where I went to Catholic school, almost all our teachers were Irish or Irish-American. My Irish friends only dated Irish boys. We learned traditional Irish songs and followed the Troubles. I understand a lot of people exaggerate their Irish roots but there are some parts of the country where it really does mean something to people. And culturally, there really is a big difference between being raised Irish or Italian or Polish or Mexican Catholic, in a country thats mostly Protestant. We might all be Americans but we're not the same!

I sometimes feel like as an English person (albeit not by American terms, then id be English - Caribbean i guess) id be slightly uncomfortable in some parts of Boston while I've NEVER felt like that in ROI or NI. To be fair though I've never actually been to Boston so maybe id be welcomed and the reputation of not liking the English there because they're all 'Irish' isnt true.

I think this is a bit unfair, though I agree somewhat. If you have Native heritage, then that's from people who've lived in the continent for 15, 000 years. There's outreach by the tribes where people can become familiar with language, customs etc

A bit different from identifying with heritage from a different country & generally focusing on 18th-19th century cultural aspects as Scottish & Irish Americans seem to (though I can see & respect why).

There's also the fact that Native Americans intermarry at a high rate and are only 1%- 3% of the population (3% if you count a those identifying as partly such on censuses). So if they don't count people who are mixed to quite a large degree, they'll get smaller & smaller.. And many tribal languages are dying out, so arguably the more who learn for whatever reason, the better.

I'm interested in Native American history & sometimes look at the subreddits. People there are generally accepting of those who want to learn more, even if they have a smaller percentage. Esp as there is a traumatic history of 'blood quantum' measurements being used by authorities to make the tribe as small as possible. But there is scepticism of people who claim it solely for benefits and/or have a tiny amount like 1/64. Eg. A lot of Cherokee members are apparently somewhat notorious for being mainly of white ancestry (though this is complex as Cherokees have a long history of intermarriage) and claiming benefits for college (Elizabeth Warren style..) when unlike many of mostly Native ancestry, they had comfortable upbringings & look white so would not be discriminated against based on their appearance alone.

There's even been some 'tribes' of people with little ancestry & cultural connection, who brought land reclamation cases or got government funding for casinos- tribes created mainly to get money apparently.

I think after famous Pretendians bring exposed like Satcheen Little feather or Buffy Saint-Marie, tribes are being a bit more circumspect.