Page 15 | Do you believe in God/a higher power?

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 08:45

I would really, really like pps who claim to believe in a benevolent God to address the issue of human suffering. But I won’t hold my breath.

I feel that they think: it’s not MY suffering, so it can be dismissed with a wave of the hand. As with my vicar example, when it’s one’s own suffering, that is the test of your faith. I have total respect for those who go through hell and retain and live their faith, but I’ve known too many Christians with pat explanations over the years and been amazed at their superficial reaction to suffering.

Kirbert2 · 09/10/2025 08:50

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 07:53

No, but you can have the humility to understand that you cannot understand what bereaved people are going through and maybe to question your own beliefs/faith?

It comes down to the age-old question from RE lesson discussions since for ever: why should I believe that God is watching over me or anyone else when he allows the horrors we see on the news to happen to thousands and millions of other people?

For some unimaginative folk, that’s just the issue: they’re OTHER people.

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For the record, I don't believe in God. Never have and since my child has had cancer, I never bloody will.

But I can understand going through something so traumatic changes you as a person because I lived through it myself and my child thankfully survived. I can understand that it can change you so much, especially if your child dies, that your beliefs and faith before an event that tragically and suddenly took your child away really shouldn't be judged. Especially if you haven't been in or close to that situation of something so traumatic that it is life changing.

It can go the other way too, some people who believe say that they become closer to God despite experiencing trauma and tragedy. It provides comfort to them, it isn't something I believe but I can understand that side of it too.

KillMeMounjaro · 09/10/2025 08:53

Agree with you @CoffeeCantata and @Pricelessadvice

It's amazing how often one hears of people losing their faith after a bad experience or tragic loss.

They know terrible, unimaginable things are happening to people - to children - all around the world, every minute of they day, but that's OK, they don't mind god allowing that because it's not them 🙄

PansyPotter84 · 09/10/2025 08:56

Yes.

100%

I know a lot of religion is man-made rules, but I’m a believer.

CandleMug · 09/10/2025 09:43

ForeverHopeful3 · 09/10/2025 03:41

With all my heart and soul. God has never let me down. I love Him so much that I would rather die than not acknowledge His presence in my life.

Gosh that’s some statement. As a non believer, I find it quite disturbing that someone would chose their own life over something that isn’t any more plausible than a story. Such is the strength of their faith.

FlyingUnicornWings · 09/10/2025 10:11

SorcererGaheris · 08/10/2025 16:53

@Pricelessadvice

You make some fair points. To address them...

But those are people more ‘primed’ to be believers because they are part of those communities

Perhaps so, but not all of these believers started out that way. Some were atheists and had no time for other spiritual beliefs either, but had experiences themselves which caused them to question or reconsider and, following on from that, found their way into paganism or occultism.

I can understand why people might consider experiences from non-believers to be more credible, but I don't think that the credibility of believers should be unjustly downplayed. Believers are a diverse lot, and some may have little credibility, but there are many thoughtful, sensible and rational-minded people who have beliefs in deities and spirits and all kinds of things. I'm not saying you should change your views because of this, just that I don't think that believers should be totally written off as non-credible (I realise that's not what you said.)

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/agora/2020/01/irish-american-witchcraft-do-i-believe-in-fairies/

This blog post by Morgan Daimler is about belief in fairies rather than deities (Morgan Daimler is an expect on Irish fairies in particular and writes about her own experiences with them as well as from a folklore perspective.) She gives her reasons for her perspective, so if you're interested in understanding how it is from a believer's perspective, I'd suggest taking a look. I'll quote a bit from it below:

Morgan Daimler:

"I have had experiences that lead me to understand fairies the way I would geysers, or squirrels, or cicadas – I know they exist, although I may or may not encounter them regularly. So it seems odd to me to say I believe in them, as it would to say I believe in geysers, but I understand that in common parlance people say ‘believe’ because fairies aren’t considered an objective phenomena.

My reality includes fairies as both a cultural concept and an experienced subject. Like my experiences with anything else, some of these encounters have been brief, shallow, and in passing while others have been deeper, more involved, and more complex. But for me part of what helps move the subject from a belief to a known is that I have had shared experiences with others in a group and have people I trust who have also had their own unique experience, including people with no previous strong belief or understanding of fairies. Another thing that helps make this more objective to me is things which have occurred that were tangible phenomena, things that moved or appeared with no human-world explanation. For me it’s simply too much over too long a period to even question the reality of it anymore."

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I like how open to conversation you are and I find your views fascinating.

Do you think that connecting to a deity or goddess could be you connecting to a “part” of yourself that developed at some point in our past, from explicit experiences you had, and has since been buried deep into your subconscious mind? So what the goddess represents is you bringing out that energy from an exiled part of who you are, to the forefront of your consciousness to help you achieve or manifest or channel the energy you seek for the goal you’re praying for?

You could use the argument that “the whole universe is within us” and such those deity’s or goddesses are too. Is that us internalising the external? Or is it just that we are whole beings and what we seek to connect with is already within us?

I don’t know if I’m making sense. I’d love to grab a cuppa and settle in for a long chat with you!

EmeraldShamrock000 · 09/10/2025 10:22

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 08:36

So your God isn’t omniscient and omnipotent, then? I thought God was supposed to be. Please correct if this is wrong.

If God IS these things then we can only conclude God is a right bastard.

Children with terminal cancer? Genocide? War and atrocities?

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My God?
I believe in a spiritual warmth.
Not a big man in the sky who made every creature great and small or one who controls everything on earth. I have seen miracles in the recovery community, we have our own interpretation of God. The only rule is to be of service to help others recover from trauma and addiction or just struggling with their shopping bags, be less selfish.

TheSwarm · 09/10/2025 10:42

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 08:45

I would really, really like pps who claim to believe in a benevolent God to address the issue of human suffering. But I won’t hold my breath.

I feel that they think: it’s not MY suffering, so it can be dismissed with a wave of the hand. As with my vicar example, when it’s one’s own suffering, that is the test of your faith. I have total respect for those who go through hell and retain and live their faith, but I’ve known too many Christians with pat explanations over the years and been amazed at their superficial reaction to suffering.

There isn't an answer.

Faith, by definition, isn't based on logic or reason and so trying to debate with people who have faith on that basis is pointless.

I look at God as described in the bible and see a egocentric arsehole, but it's so obviously a work of fiction it doesn't really matter anyway. I don't really understand why anyone would WANT to believe in such a being. I have way more respect for people who say they have a belief or connection to the idea of an undescribed entity in general than i do for people who follow any one of the man-made religions.

persephonia · 09/10/2025 10:53

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 06:20

I do. I think about things like that all the time. I’m a catastrophiser. I thought everyone was like this.

No, I’m sorry, I don’t agree.

i have always been hyper- aware of terrible events and your post has made me realise that perhaps it’s not “normal”. I remember the Indian Ocean Tsunami and not being able to sleep for days and I’m still haunted by what happened to those people…and the Beslan School siege etc etc.

i feel desperate for this woman having lost her daughter. If I lost mine I would be in terminal despair. What I can’t believe is that as a minister she needed to experience this loss herself before really understanding it. So - she must have been going around telling bereaved or traumatised people that it’s OK, God is love etc and that they’d all be united again on day. Then it happens to her and suddenly God isn’t love and in fact she stops believing in God altogether.

Some people DO have the imagination and empathy to foresee the impact of traumatic events, trust me.

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I don't think you're quite as empathetic as you think you are.
I don't mean that to say that you are cold hearted. But thinking a lot about how awful it would be to be in a disaster far away/catastrophising might show an above average tendancy to think about other people. It doesn't make you omniscient though. And assuming a sort of emotional all knowing is as problematic as assuming a scientific all knowing. I think maybe you filled in your own reasons for why the friend of a friend had and then lost her faith. And assume that to be fact. Other people who have lost children are telling us that you can't know what it's like until it happens. So I chose to believe them.
There's a difference between sympathy and empathy basically.

But to be honest, I'm not comfortable debating this too much because the details are very identifying. If the person this was about (or anyone who knew them) read the post I suspect they would know it was about them so it feels quite cruel to essentially slag someone of.
.

SorcererGaheris · 09/10/2025 12:53

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 08:36

So your God isn’t omniscient and omnipotent, then? I thought God was supposed to be. Please correct if this is wrong.

If God IS these things then we can only conclude God is a right bastard.

Children with terminal cancer? Genocide? War and atrocities?

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@CoffeeCantata

Well, the view of polytheist pagans is that no, gods and goddesses ARE NOT omniscient and omnipotent. We think the same of the Christian God - we believe he exists, but as one of many deities.

If you're interested in the response the issue of evil/suffering from a polytheist pagan perspective, I encourage you to watch a part of the video 'A Pagan Response to Atheism' by Ocean Keltoi.

The related segment is from roughly 11.05 to 18.40.

Amongst other things, he describes how in pagan philosophy, deities are NOT considered or claimed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, or even all-loving or all-good. The gods and goddesses have limits to their power and are not aware of everything that is happening. In polytheist traditions, deities are not capable of everything; they have specific skills related to specific fields. A God or Goddess associated with love might be able to help you get a boyfriend or get more friends, but they may be less good at helping you get more money.

So, from my perspective as a polytheist, deities are not necessarily capable of preventing suffering on a massive scale and are not necessarily aware of all of it. Not all of them are necessarily interested in humanity or care particularly.

It could be said that some deities can help contribute to certain horrible things in some ways - The Morrigan is an Irish Goddess associated with war, amongst other things.

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Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL__XolIlIY

Parker231 · 09/10/2025 13:33

EmeraldShamrock000 · 08/10/2025 19:26

Yes. I have witnessed many people coming back from devastation through addiction recovery.

what has that to do with religious beliefs?

Parker231 · 09/10/2025 13:42

ForeverHopeful3 · 09/10/2025 03:41

With all my heart and soul. God has never let me down. I love Him so much that I would rather die than not acknowledge His presence in my life.

How has god never let you down? What has he that is worth your dying for - your comment is very dramatic!

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 13:58

persephonia · 09/10/2025 10:53

I don't think you're quite as empathetic as you think you are.
I don't mean that to say that you are cold hearted. But thinking a lot about how awful it would be to be in a disaster far away/catastrophising might show an above average tendancy to think about other people. It doesn't make you omniscient though. And assuming a sort of emotional all knowing is as problematic as assuming a scientific all knowing. I think maybe you filled in your own reasons for why the friend of a friend had and then lost her faith. And assume that to be fact. Other people who have lost children are telling us that you can't know what it's like until it happens. So I chose to believe them.
There's a difference between sympathy and empathy basically.

But to be honest, I'm not comfortable debating this too much because the details are very identifying. If the person this was about (or anyone who knew them) read the post I suspect they would know it was about them so it feels quite cruel to essentially slag someone of.
.

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Er no. She told me herself. 🙄 Jeez.

Blimey - what a phenomenal lot of reading between the lines, prejudice and assumptions. Try harder.

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 14:01

EmeraldShamrock000 · 09/10/2025 10:22

My God?
I believe in a spiritual warmth.
Not a big man in the sky who made every creature great and small or one who controls everything on earth. I have seen miracles in the recovery community, we have our own interpretation of God. The only rule is to be of service to help others recover from trauma and addiction or just struggling with their shopping bags, be less selfish.

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So this is a God of your own construction? That’s fine - but it doesn’t sound like the one most followers of the Abrahamic religions would recognise.

Netcurtainnelly · 09/10/2025 14:02

CuriousAboutWhatYouThink · 08/10/2025 07:09

Not religion. I have no time for organised religion and the associated man made rules.

But do you believe in 'something'?

For context, my grandad was a CofE vicar but my parent rebelled against it and we were brought up broadly l in the religion (eg we celebrated main religious festivals like Easter and Christmas) but not as practising Christians and without a particular belief in God.

As an adult, I have friends of different faiths and none and it's something we have discussed from time to time. It's also something I used to discuss with my grandma who had a very strong belief in God but also believed the Bible until she became older when she still had a strong faith but admitted she thought the Bible was largely nonsense!

I suppose I've always felt that there is 'something' but I refer to it as the universe. I don't know, I always feel that there has been 'something' looking out for me.

That doesn't mean bad things have never happened because they have and religion/belief doesn't protect anyone from that. And it doesn't mean my life is anywhere near perfect because it's not. But the universe has always seemed to 'step in' when needed.

I don't know. I'm going through a tough time at the moment but I have a feeling everything will turn out to be OK because it always does.

Definitely not as God lol.
Ancient hearsay with no proof.
Sometimes things are meant to be though and happen for a reason.

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 14:03

Kirbert2 · 09/10/2025 08:50

For the record, I don't believe in God. Never have and since my child has had cancer, I never bloody will.

But I can understand going through something so traumatic changes you as a person because I lived through it myself and my child thankfully survived. I can understand that it can change you so much, especially if your child dies, that your beliefs and faith before an event that tragically and suddenly took your child away really shouldn't be judged. Especially if you haven't been in or close to that situation of something so traumatic that it is life changing.

It can go the other way too, some people who believe say that they become closer to God despite experiencing trauma and tragedy. It provides comfort to them, it isn't something I believe but I can understand that side of it too.

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Yes. I DO understand how a terrible tragedy happening to you would rob you of your faith.

My point is that this woman didn’t, and she, of all people, should have done.

EmeraldShamrock000 · 09/10/2025 14:15

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 14:03

Yes. I DO understand how a terrible tragedy happening to you would rob you of your faith.

My point is that this woman didn’t, and she, of all people, should have done.

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Says who? You come across as a bit obsessive with this poor woman's tragedy and her reaction to the tragedy.
You don't even know this person personally, you have no idea how or why she lost her faith, she probably doesn't understand how she tried to bring comfort to others in her situation before she experienced it for herself. People just try to do the best in a bad situation.

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:32

CoffeeCantata · 09/10/2025 08:45

I would really, really like pps who claim to believe in a benevolent God to address the issue of human suffering. But I won’t hold my breath.

I feel that they think: it’s not MY suffering, so it can be dismissed with a wave of the hand. As with my vicar example, when it’s one’s own suffering, that is the test of your faith. I have total respect for those who go through hell and retain and live their faith, but I’ve known too many Christians with pat explanations over the years and been amazed at their superficial reaction to suffering.

@CoffeeCantata " I would really, really like pps who claim to believe in a benevolent God to address the issue of human suffering. But I won’t hold my breath."
Breathe easy - here is the answer.

Human suffering entered the world due to the effects of original sin. God does not cause the suffering. He simply permits it to happen in our lives. To understand suffering, we must first understand some basic principles about God.
God is all-knowing. He is aware of every pain we feel and every tear we shed. He can see our entire life on earth as well as our eternal destiny. God is all-loving. He loves us more than we love ourselves and would not permit something to happen to us that would keep us from our ultimate good, which is God himself.
God is all-powerful. He can bring good out of evil.

Bearing these facts in mind, sometimes God permits suffering to keep us from a greater suffering later or to preserve us for a greater good. For example, you might be passed over for a seemingly great job opportunity, only to get a better one later. Or God may know a danger lurking in the job environment that could bring you physical or spiritual harm.
Trusting in God helps us deal with this kind of suffering.

Further, God permits us to lose things that we have come to worship above him. For example, someone who has made money his god may suffer the shame and hardship of bankruptcy. This suffering can bring about a total dependence on God and submission to his will.
God may allow suffering that has no apparent reason—a child dies, we are injured in a car accident, or a natural disaster strikes. These situations are the most difficult to understand. Yet though we do not see the reason for such suffering we know that there is one, even if it is not apparent from our limited perspective.

We are particularly vulnerable and weak when we suffer because we recognize that we are not in control. Yet it is precisely at this moment that we can become our strongest, if we learn to depend on God. Christ died to save us from the loss of heaven. He did not die to save us from suffering in this world.

thecatneuterer · 09/10/2025 14:34

Netcurtainnelly · 09/10/2025 14:02

Definitely not as God lol.
Ancient hearsay with no proof.
Sometimes things are meant to be though and happen for a reason.

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So who/what is controlling these things that are happening for a reason? What's their motive? Is this entity really getting involved in the lives of every human (what about animals?) and changing things here and there to in turn bring about something else and something else? And every tweaked scenario will also somehow affect the future of many others, and it's like some vast game of chess looking hundreds of moves ahead? And some will end up winners and some losers? Do you really think there's something that's doing all that? And again, what would be the motive?

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:39

thecatneuterer · 09/10/2025 14:34

So who/what is controlling these things that are happening for a reason? What's their motive? Is this entity really getting involved in the lives of every human (what about animals?) and changing things here and there to in turn bring about something else and something else? And every tweaked scenario will also somehow affect the future of many others, and it's like some vast game of chess looking hundreds of moves ahead? And some will end up winners and some losers? Do you really think there's something that's doing all that? And again, what would be the motive?

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If you really want answers to this conundrum I would suggest you have a chat with your local Parish Priest or spiritual advisor.

They have greater knowledge of Theology than most of us.

Unfortunately, I have found over the years that these type of threads are not created because of a search for knowledge but just an excuse to do some God-bashing and make fun of believers.
That's why I often tend not to engage.

thecatneuterer · 09/10/2025 14:50

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:39

If you really want answers to this conundrum I would suggest you have a chat with your local Parish Priest or spiritual advisor.

They have greater knowledge of Theology than most of us.

Unfortunately, I have found over the years that these type of threads are not created because of a search for knowledge but just an excuse to do some God-bashing and make fun of believers.
That's why I often tend not to engage.

Edited

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What I wanted was for the previous poster, who specifically said she didn't believe in any gods, to explain her thinking behind "things happen for a reason". Nothing whatsoever to do with theology.

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:55

thecatneuterer · 09/10/2025 14:50

What I wanted was for the previous poster, who specifically said she didn't believe in any gods, to explain her thinking behind "things happen for a reason". Nothing whatsoever to do with theology.

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OK, then let's see what she comes up with...🙄

CurlewKate · 09/10/2025 15:00

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:39

If you really want answers to this conundrum I would suggest you have a chat with your local Parish Priest or spiritual advisor.

They have greater knowledge of Theology than most of us.

Unfortunately, I have found over the years that these type of threads are not created because of a search for knowledge but just an excuse to do some God-bashing and make fun of believers.
That's why I often tend not to engage.

Edited

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Or you could ignore the minority of god bashers and join in with those of us who are ready for a proper discussion and in some cases know at least as much theology as the average parish priest.

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 15:01

CurlewKate · 09/10/2025 15:00

Or you could ignore the minority of god bashers and join in with those of us who are ready for a proper discussion and in some cases know at least as much theology as the average parish priest.

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Well I don't, so I'll dip out of that one thanks. 🙂

CandleMug · 09/10/2025 15:02

RedAdmirals · 09/10/2025 14:32

@CoffeeCantata " I would really, really like pps who claim to believe in a benevolent God to address the issue of human suffering. But I won’t hold my breath."
Breathe easy - here is the answer.

Human suffering entered the world due to the effects of original sin. God does not cause the suffering. He simply permits it to happen in our lives. To understand suffering, we must first understand some basic principles about God.
God is all-knowing. He is aware of every pain we feel and every tear we shed. He can see our entire life on earth as well as our eternal destiny. God is all-loving. He loves us more than we love ourselves and would not permit something to happen to us that would keep us from our ultimate good, which is God himself.
God is all-powerful. He can bring good out of evil.

Bearing these facts in mind, sometimes God permits suffering to keep us from a greater suffering later or to preserve us for a greater good. For example, you might be passed over for a seemingly great job opportunity, only to get a better one later. Or God may know a danger lurking in the job environment that could bring you physical or spiritual harm.
Trusting in God helps us deal with this kind of suffering.

Further, God permits us to lose things that we have come to worship above him. For example, someone who has made money his god may suffer the shame and hardship of bankruptcy. This suffering can bring about a total dependence on God and submission to his will.
God may allow suffering that has no apparent reason—a child dies, we are injured in a car accident, or a natural disaster strikes. These situations are the most difficult to understand. Yet though we do not see the reason for such suffering we know that there is one, even if it is not apparent from our limited perspective.

We are particularly vulnerable and weak when we suffer because we recognize that we are not in control. Yet it is precisely at this moment that we can become our strongest, if we learn to depend on God. Christ died to save us from the loss of heaven. He did not die to save us from suffering in this world.

Show quote history

When I read things like this, when people speak so highly of their god and how wonderful he is, it’s quite literally as believable to me as someone saying Harry Potter is real and how incredible he is.

I love your enthusiasm and dedication but it defies logic and every principle we know and observe daily. Harry Potter could be replaced with the terminator, or any other film/book character who inspires.