Did I ruin my career by having children?

[prettydesertflower]

It just feels women get the short end of the stick. I always struggled to balance climbing the ladder with being a decent parent. I never was sure I got it right.

Then someone sends me this more or less confirming we can’t have it all and it makes me think what was the point of all the struggle if we are going to end up poorer in the long term anyway.

Am I being unreasonable to think no matter how hard you try to climb the career ladder, you will loose out financially if you have kids?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgq4x697q5o

I think it’s a really complicated picture to be honest, to some extent it depends on the job and on what other support you have.

I’m about to go off on my second maternity leave, my employer is really good, I was able to return 4 days a week without issue after my first baby and can increase back to 5 whenever I choose which was my choice, they have never been annoyed or frustrated by last minute days off when my daughter has been unwell, they understand that I now finish at X time to do the pick ups etc, my job is such that none of those things make a huge difference.

But to an extent there is a ceiling I’ve hit now whereby if I wanted to apply for the next promotion things would hit a stumbling block because at that point there is an expectation that I’d travel across the country with a days notice, could be gone for a few days at a time, I’d be expected to be “available” until a later time most days, there’d be an expectation that I’d be available whenever needed for certain meetings whether they be 8am/6pm etc. And those are all valid requirements for that role, but they aren’t compatible with the kind of parent I want to be or the support we have available. There is only my husband & I really, my family are great but are not childcare and I wouldn’t expect them to be. So I suppose you could say that is a “cost” of motherhood for me, and so is the “cost” of having 12 months maternity & returning part time but those things were all my own choices not something forced on me so I don’t really see it as a cost? I could have taken a shorter leave & then gone back full time, I chose not to.

Pay data like this is too broad brush because it lumps together mums who want to progress and mums who want to downsize their career. And yes, many of us do.

From what I've seen in the workplace, mums certainly can carry on progressing their career if they want to. Many of us prefer to drop down to part time (say) which skews the pay data.

More useful data would be asking for mothers' intentions and monitoring for any mismatch in outcomes, compared to other groups.

It's pretty illogical to believe that you can have it all.

There are not enough hours in the day to do a good job, be a present parent, keep your environment pleasant, persue some interests and sleep.

If you're wealthy you can pay someone to raise your kids and care for your house whilst you concentrate on your career. Or your DH can do that and you can take on the traditional male role with minimal parenting.

Its helpful to establish a career before having DC, then maintain that level during the hardest child rearing years, then try to get going again later.

I've nursed many people up to their death. No one wants to write an email or talks about missing those meetings. They all want to see their children.

For me for example, I worked 4dpw in my main job before having kids (I have freelancing on the side). I dropped down to 3dpw, by my choice, after having kids, so that was a 25% pay cut. But my employer keeps hinting that they'd be keen for me to go back to 4 or even 5d if I ever wanted (I don't). That'd be a 67% pay rise if I wanted it! I do not.

My situation isn't uncommon. Lots of mums want to spend more time with their young kids, and don't mind downsizing their career. Many prefer to carry on progressing their career and more power to them, I am very happy to work under them. But lumping us all together skews the pay data.

I chose to take a step back and go part time when dd was little. I worked 3 days a week and decided to do an additional qualification when she was in school. When she was in year 5 I qualified and have been on a mission to make up for lost time! I've gone full time, moved sectors and am on my third promotion in 5 years. I might be a bit ahead of where I am now without dd but I don't think I'm far off. Having a supportive dh who encourages me and does his share (and probably a bit more than 50%) is the key!

yes, but more by the fact that they have SN rather than me being a mother. I can only work very part time, no wrap around care, no school holiday childcare, and now, that own is almost an adults I am looking into the abyss and will have to stop work although as they still need 24/7 care but school is coming to an end in the next year and there is nothing else.

Yes - but I’ve known a few older women who’ve felt they haven’t achieved their potential in life. That can also be a death bed regret.

@prettydesertflower having children makes you put things into perspective. If you value your earning potential above them then perhaps you're not ready to have them. Do you work to live or live to work?

Agree with other posters this is too simplistic. I think a lot of this is driven by the fact that many women choose a different approach to work after children (often because of husbands who don’t pull their weight). I would imagine if you were to work the same way as many men do (longer hours, willingness to travel) the having a kid wouldn’t make a difference to your career trajectory. But obviously may not be what you would want for your family life!

Yes but life is more than work. I had to step back a bit but now my kids are grown up I’ve taken on new work challenges no issue at all.

I think the problem is that it is HARD, even with money to throw at the problem - and so women end up doing things like working part time, not pushing for promotion, getting a job to fit with school hours.

Id say my career has so far been unaffected by having children, but I worked until 40 weeks, took very short maternity leaves, always worked full time, had my child in childcare full time / nanny from a very young age. A lot of people wouldn’t be up for that - it has not always been easy and people are VERY judgemental (in a negative way) about it.

Albeit - that’s not exclusively about personal fortitude or drive. A large part of my ability to do it is that I can afford to - and the financial return of doing so is worthwhile.

It would help if childcare provision wasn’t so expensive and chaotic - and I don’t really believe that flexible work exists to the extent it is talked about…!

The women I know who 'have it all' generally have husbands who agree to take a step back from their careers in order to support them to achieve their ambitions. These are very few and far between, because most men are unwilling to do this and to take on the lion's share of domestic chores and childcare. I also think that women are more likely to prioritise time with their children. It's why so many women 'lose themselves' to being wives and mothers - even if it's their choice.

I don't think it's possible to have it all, no. Unless you're a man, seemingly. I was talking to a friend recently (young kids, close to instigating divorce) who was saying that her husband is always telling people how having children has made no difference to the lives they have, and that it's been far easier than he thought. He's out doing his hobbies most days of the week, while she's run ragged pulled in different directions at once. His life hasn't changed a bit. His career is blooming, at her expense. It's why she now wants a divorce.

Sorry I will bring some politics into this.

The article seems to espouse the (usually) left wing idealist view that everyone wants the same thing and therefore we should be looking for equality of outcome. Ie mothers and non mothers should have the same pay progression in all cases.

I'm of the opinion that instead we should aim for equality of opportunity, ie any mothers who choose to progress their careers should be as free to do so as non mothers, and generally speaking I think most workplaces are converging towards this goal. But this will not give you identical outcomes because of mums like me who chose to go part time (and there are loads of us).

I'm still breastfeeding and my husband can't do that. I also had awful births to recover from. Women and men simply have different parenting journeys in the early years and we can't ignore that.

So how come many mums do manage it, including single mums, who do raise happy children who become well adjusted adults?

I don't have much of a career and that's due, in part, to having children and also due to following my husband's career around since we graduated.

It's a choice I made and I don't really regret it. I couldn't have done full on career and motherhood. I genuinely admire people who can do both - I honestly just don't have enough energy and drive to do it.

I have worked since my youngest was 6 months old, but never in what you'd call a high power job and always around the kids. Evenings and weekends when they were babies and now term time only.

The other thing is that although I went to a really well respected university etc, my husband was a lot more in demand after university than I was, so it made sense to prioritise his career

So I’m going back 3.5 days a week when I finish mat leave (taking 15mo). Significant pay cut obviously. DP is full time but earns the same as my PT salary.

I’d love to quit altogether if we had enough cash already, or if I could walk back into the job if needed when DC is 3 or older.

I’m not ambitious about my career at all though, and have never enjoyed paid work (I’m a City lawyer). I’ve taken big pay cuts before, the latest to leave mega stressful long hours client work for better hours and quality of life. So going PT for me is a continuation of a trajectory I was already on before DC. I already have significant assets built up before DC, and managed to get my employer to contribute loads to my pension during the unpaid period of mat leave.

All that said, I know precisely ZERO men who work PT so they can be more present for their children! It isn’t a coincidence that so many women want to stop work or go PT (hitting them financially) and essentially no men do. I don’t know what the “answer” is OP - I just know work doesn’t matter to me (aside from the money) whereas my family does.

Surely it depends what you want from life?

You can take the minimum 2 weeks maternity and return.

Life is always about choices. A full time career and raising kids are big demanding roles that can't be done simultaneously, or at least not easily.

Having kids is a choice so this is something you consider before making that choice.

(And as a teacher, some of the naughtiest kids I've taught are from career climbing parents whose idea of parenting is buying their kids anything they want and an expensive summer holiday. They for get about time and attention being far more important than materialistic junk).

i wasn’t doing too well at work before DC - occupation I chose was not a good fit - but since having DC (now teens) found it very difficult indeed.

Men get to have DC and maintain their personal earning ability. Usually because they do much less parenting and domestic work and work longer hours, travel for work etc.

My DH does more than many fathers I know but refused to even consider part time or compressed hours. Childcare was poor where we lived with DC1 so I worked PT for around five years and it was crap workwise, including what I regard to have been direct and indirect discrimination.

Totally agree with this point.
I am quite career driven but I took a full year of mat leave and I went down to 4days a week. Hypothetically I would have no problem with a woman who was working full-time and took a few months mat leave, or a child-free woman who had put in all the hours, getting promoted over me. I know I'm moving ahead in my career but my progress will be slower than other women who made different choices (and let's face it, a lot of men), and I'm absolutely fine with that. the early years of parenthood especially involve a lot of trade-offs and I went into that with my eyes open.

It completely depends on what you class as ‘having it all’. I think I have it all as I have exactly what I want and what I believe works well for our family. I had children later so I was more senior, I took steps to make sure I was in a flexible role with good promotion opportunities (I got a promotion as soon as I got back from mat leave). I have a husband who shares the load completely (financial/housework/childcare/mental). We are all happy, spend quality time together, no stress or worries. Weekends are purely for family fun. We are completely content and I wouldn’t change a thing.

That’s obviously not going to be everyone’s preference, like some other poster’s choices would definitely not be mine. So, it depends on what your preferences are in order to know if you’ve achieved them, you can’t compare unless you know what the parameters are.

I think hybrid working is making it easier - when mine started school I worked 10-2 with an hour commute each way. It wasn't sustainable from a work perspective, but kept me in the game long enough to find a scenario that worked better for work. It was never perfect though. Some children take to daycare and wraparound care well, and others don't. My 21 year old recently told me he hated having to be marched along the street to the after school club past his friends who were being picked up by parents and all playing together in the park.

I remember coming home to an empty house for just an hour as a teenager and it felt like forever.

On the whole we make the choices we want to make. You have to accept some responsibility for that. I knew I couldn’t have kids and still manage my career. I chose a career, other women wouldn’t. That’s fine. I think a lot of women kid themselves they can “Have It All” but it’s not really possible without flaming out.

I’m a single parent and I made every single one of the salary and pension sacrifices; even when we were together and both doing side hustles, her father never considered rearranging something he wanted to do so that I could work (even if my work was booked first). My dd is wonderful and happy, has a good relationship with both of us, and I LOVED being her mum and working around her because she lit up my life.

That said, when I started working part time, I expected that her father would compensate, but that never happened. He has lived his life without compromising and when we both retire I’ll be poor and he won’t be.

So I nodded along to that article on the news yesterday. I don’t regret my choices, I do regret her father’s choices towards me, and I do think that we are not equipped with the knowledge we should have before making those career choices. I think that should be in the antenatal education, along with what food to avoid.

Yes - having a child is still a backward step for women. You give up your high flying career and then you just have a job. You get passed over for promotion because you want to work part time and you are considered unreliable because you have a child. Women cannot have it all - and everyone should stop pretending they can.