To feel a bit bad for the met police on bbc panorama undercover

[Bloodyscarymary]

Just watching the BBC Panorama doco “Undercover in the Police” and I can’t help feeling a bit uneasy.

Yes, the behaviour shown is awful and they should lose their jobs, but having their faces, names and secretly recorded conversations, sometimes even off duty over a pint broadcast feels like a bit of a violation of privacy.

I honestly would have thought secret filming like that couldn’t even be made public, but clearly it’s legal or the BBC wouldn’t air it.

I’m not excusing what was said at all. The culture clearly needs to change. But is it fair to single out these particular officers when the problem is obviously widespread?

I also felt some of the more junior officers had just absorbed the culture around them, and at times the journalist might have been nudging them into certain topics. A few of the comments even felt like dark humour or going along with pub chat. Still unacceptable, but if you secretly recorded doctors or other professions that probably use a lot of dark humour to get through it, I’m sure you’d hear things that would seem really callous to an outsider.

Absolutely they should be fired/reprimanded, but do they deserve complete public exposure like this? AIBU to feel uncomfortable about it?

YABU they deserve everything that’s coming their way

YANBU it’s too much personal exposure when the real problem is the Met culture not these individual cops

So you think what they said was normal within the context of their work? I sincerely doubt that most people react that way or find that is the best way to decompress. If anything this show highlights the need for officers to have some more formal yet confidential way of offloading this stuff.

There’s more to it than demonstrable harm though. And although someone might believe that they are always professional, there’s a very good chance an unconscious bias will have an impact on the decisions they make and how they treat people, even if they’re not aware of it.

That’s why it’s such a problem to have people with such unpleasant and in some cases, extreme, views in a position of power.

Prejudice inevitably shows, even if the person thinks they’re keeping it under wraps.

Talking of psychometric testing, I've always thought MPs should have to have this. There was a petition a while ago but unsurprisingly Parliament rejected it.

I think it is reasonable that people exposed to the level of daily abuse that the police endure, woudl have developed less than palatable coping mechanisms.

An investigation into these officers is warrented to see if any of these thoughts that they had out loud effected their behaviour towards people that put them at risk, but given the fact I have worked in healthcare with difficult patients I certainaly think that it is a reaction that is within the range of normal.

I agree that there needs to be better coping tools, and a more supportive culture to manage daily exposure to PTSD inducing events, but I am not going to judge someone I don't know, when they have a confronting job, in a difficult cuture and are being filmed secretly. Given the recent revelations about the BBC I am surprised that they are not taking a more neutral and compassionate view.

The most dangerous people are the ones that thinks that they would never do anything to hurt anyone else in any circumstance.

It wouldn't matter how many wines you gave me (ex nurse) because I don't think that way, so I wouldn't say it. People only say things that they think. They shouldn't be thinking that way.

Thats the issue isn't it? Every human (hell even AI) has unconcious bias.

So it is impossible to eliminate it, therefore you have to accept the risk and have controls such as reports and witnesses and whistleblower policies to manage that risk.

Inappropriate but the same conversations that are going on in every workplace, office, home and pub. The media pixel out the faces of the Pakistani grooming rapists yet none of these police get the same privacy. What have they done e wrong?? Is t this what we are all fighting for- FREEDOM OF SPEECH?? Yes mention Sarah Everard- that was one or two vile policemen- that’s not what has happened here. They were letting off steam AND telling the truth in some of their opinions of the types they have to deal with on a daily basis. Who would do their horrible job today? I can’t help feeling that they were deliberately and very slyly filmed in a honey trap situation where the recorder deliberately enticed them or egged them on to discuss race relations etc. Very dishonest and frankly very disturbing that these hard working police have been compromised in this way.

You have better expectations to me. This is not new. This is not just the Met.

Well that would be an excellent idea!!

I think with MPs we see a real divergence - some really clearly get involved as they’re passionate about helping and making a difference but others, not so much.

Even although I might not have agreed with their policies, MPs used to be made up of people who were motivated for the right reasons. Same as the police. And not so much now for either group unfortunately.

Yes, I was just thinking about this a bit further.

I think although unconscious bias is inevitable, it’s not inevitable to have people who are racist, sexist, homophobic etc.

It’s less the fact that everyone has some natural bias, but more the fact that there are people in positions of power with views that should have been left in the 1970s.

For example, I’m autistic so I might unconsciously have more empathy towards another autistic person and their difficulties, but it doesn’t mean that I automatically assume all neurotypical people are bad or in the wrong. That kind of blanket prejudice and unconscious bias is what causes real harm, in various ways.

What happened? I do think there were always MP's who got involved bc they were posh & it was the done thing, or other reasons, but yes, before many seemed to be more motivated.

Anecdotally, distrust of the police does seem to have been longer running, though probs not to the same extent.

( I'd love to have seen Boris, Truss, Corbyn etc's psychometric results!)

Some people need to be exposed to realise what they have become. That sergeant, the guy making constant unwarranted sexual comments - I hope he watches this back and sees how seedy and inappropriate it was, and feels ashamed.

So 'telling the truth'? The same conversations are going on 'everywhere'?

About that 17yo autistic boy?

About the pregnant woman brutally kicked in the stomach?

The sexual comments at work that made the female officer really uncomfortable?

Never had those kind of convos myself, thankfully...

Hmm, OK...some of the stuff was clearly over the line though, the treatment of the pregnant woman or the sexual comments at WORK, not the pub.

I’m a nurse and would expect to be hauled in front of the Nursing and Midwifery Council if I engaged in unprofessional behaviour, that includes breaching confidentiality in an ‘off duty setting’.

This ‘banter’ isn’t just harmless, it helps to spread and normalise misogynistic and racist views. Unfortunately these people are in a position of power and despite numerous attempts to stamp it out it still persists. If they need filming undercover then so be it!

I don’t think it will ever be rid of it. No police force will. The Met is only different to the dozens of other police forces around the country bc of its size and ‘importance’ of its location.

Like the fact teachers have this false image of being robotic humanoids who’s first interest is always other ppls children despite being in a job that sees them working long hours when they come home and at weekends and holidays, high levels of stress, workplace bullying, abuse from parents and students… people are shocked that they are actually regular people capable of feeling and doing all sorts of things that fall beneath the high levels of moral code that are placed upon them. The same applies to doctors, nurses, any industry who are primarily dealing with the vulnerable and in ‘respectable’ and caring positions as well as those in authority.

I’m staggered that ppl still assume that the people who make up the majority of police forces are these whiter than white (in terms of morals) figures whose prime motivation is pure benevolence and self-sacrificial service to others. Some are. The majority are drawn from the same demographic which makes up the majority of Tommy Robinson supporters. Why is this so hard to connect?

I’m not saying that all white men from working class/lower income backgrounds are inherently racist, misogynistic homophobes, or that those from upper middle classes are all virtuous saints, but the assumption that they are somehow these model citizens who only want to do good in the world just by virtue of joining this institution and somehow only get corrupted by the few ‘bad apples’ once they are part of it is so naive it’s laughable. They were always racist, misogynistic homophobes. They were hardly going to formally announce this at interview. And to be honest, with the deficit of serving officers out there, in a job many would not touch with a barge pole for numerous reasons, I’m sure many are suspected as being such, but allowed through the gate as long as they don’t get their true persona stamped on their forehead, so the forces can at least maintain the facade of being respectable and not inherently corrupt. As long as they have boots on the ground I’m sure they don’t ultimately care, until it’s signposted in neon for the whole world to see courtesy of Panorama.

Men like this work in all industries, not just the police, why is it surprising they feature in the Met? Particularly when we know professions of authority - like teaching and politics, can and do attract narcissistic bullies who thrive on power over others and will abuse their position if allowed to do so. If they weren’t in the police they’d be in factories, garages, hospitality, supermarkets, building sites - not waiting un-boxed in some factory that mass produces unblemished new recruits. The majority aren’t university graduates, they’re ordinary working people, and often view joining the police as a job that pays reasonably well, is pretty secure, demands a certain level of respect and due to its very challenging nature is crying out for ppl to sign up. It’s not always a vocational calling no matter what we’d prefer to believe. They are just people at the end of the day, not superheroes, and the same goes for everyone across all roles. There is no sphere that does not have evil arseholes within it - look at the charity workers that were exposed a few years ago for sexual exploitation and paedophilia fgs!

As long as ppl hate or fear other ppl there will always be ppl like this in roles we’d rather they weren’t in. You can’t read other minds and know the dark thoughts ppl are capable of harbouring, but allowing an environment where they feel comfortable and safe enough to disclose them openly is unacceptable and can be dealt with. Why the hell isn’t it?

My Uncle joined the Met after A Levels at age 19.
It was all he wanted to do from early childhood.
My Uncle is white, straight and British.

He witnessed; racism, misogyny and homophobia.
Also poor treatment of suspects, witnesses particularly people reporting sexual assault and a general disregard for any members of the public at all.

He could not in any good conscience live with the hatred he saw, every day.
He left after 3 years of service the minimum he could do, he was completely disillusioned by his experiences.

The year he left was 1974.

51 years later nothing has changed.

When we remember Sarah Everard her murderer was not simply “one bad apple”.
His colleagues knew about his unacceptable conduct for many years and nothing was done.

Panorama probably did not have to sift through hours of footage, I think they did not have to look at all to find examples of the force behaving in an entirely unacceptable manner.

The Met needs to be replaced, to have a complete fresh start IMO. From the top to the bottom, because the current leadership is unwilling, or unable, to prevent the appalling behaviour of their officers.

The Met is not fit for purpose.

Based on your post, I'm not surprised that you would blurt out horrific racist and misogynistic stuff at work.

The upper echelons of the BBC are filled with right wing members such as Tim Davie, Director General of the BBC and Robbie Gibb.

The police sergeant in the programme was vile about the pregnant victim of a violent sexual assault and bailed the perpetrator to the disbelief of other officers, questioning and disbelieving her version of events, even though she had a boot mark on her pregnant stomach.

Exactly, people are saying it's OK as long as it wasn't affecting work when several of the worst bits WERE at work .

Personal observation.. I had to endure this kind of toxic work environment 24x7 when I was in the army 40 years ago. One of the reasons I didn't join the civvy police when I left is I knew that it would just be the same. I am saddened, but not shocked this is how some still behave. I feel sympathy for the families of the culprits...but I would be unlikely to tolerate that kind of behaviour to get to that point..i.e marrying a misogynist piece of shtt.

I know the US is different & there are genuine issues w the police there lots of the time, esp w guns, but I still thought the people who went around shouting 'ACAB' (All Cops Are Bastards) and 'Defund the police' were idiots.

Now...I still think that they were very wrong bc less policing is never the answer (black & Hispanic Americans consistently want better police, not less police).

But in a way I'm wondering if ACAB is true. Not literally, there are many great officers, but in the sense that by nature the job will attract a lot of these types of people. Similar for the military. Both professions seem to have higher than average DV rates.

A few people need to read behind some of the factual murder, of young women, dramas. The Police haven't made mistakes for years over violence towards women, they've ignored, added to, allowed it and condoned it.
After watching "I fought the law", I read around the case. One of the detectives knew there must have been more victims, but had no support from colleagues. There was at least one other murder and other missing young women. The long shadow, is a good one re the Yorkshire Ripper.
Google, young woman killed by stalker. The cases are shocking. One woman was fined for wasting police time, another went to prison for false allegations, both eventually killed by the men. My neighbour and her Mother were killed by a man who should have been in custody. These are group decisions, yes there's direction from senior officers, but we need new officers to be less influced. Thirty years in the Police means you were trained in the bad old days and worked through a time when you ignored DV and rape. Attitudes outside of work, keep the culture and ethos going inside of work. What is said, the WA messages all matter, even when having a drink.

This absolutely needed exposing. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the police who were involved.
The entire met police need investigating and sorting out. The racism, misogyny and corruption has been allowed to remain there for too long.

A 'few bad apples' is downplaying and minimising the conduct of a significant minority of police officers. The 'bad apples' in the other professions you have mentioned aren't working in an environment where many colleages agree with them and look the other way when they commit acts of violence, racism and misogyny. In the Metropolitan Police the racism and misogyny is clearly institutional and endemic, despite the denials of this by Mark Rowley, the Met Commissioner.

Of course I'd rather have a police force than not. However, it's perfectly reasonable to expect to have a police force without a significant proportion of racists and sexists who abuse and harm the people in their custody.

We've seen where these attitudes can lead with the murder of Sarah Everard. His earlier criminal acts such as indecent exposure were ignored and he was free to carry out and use the camouflage of his police uniform to abduct, rape and kill a vulnerable woman who wouldn't have got into any other stranger's car but obviously felt that a police car was safe.

Let me guess, you’re a copper or a copper’s wife 🙄

A police officer has been charged with orally and anally raping a woman just recently, so every one of these fuckers need to be shown in the light for who they are.