Page 20 | To feel a bit bad for the met police on bbc panorama undercover

Bloodyscarymary · 2025-10-01T20:46:43+00:00

Just watching the BBC Panorama doco “Undercover in the Police” and I can’t help feeling a bit uneasy. Yes, the behaviour shown is awful and they should lose their jobs, but having their faces, names and secretly recorded conversations, sometimes even off duty over a pint broadcast feels like a bit of a violation of privacy. I honestly would have thought secret filming like that couldn’t even be made public, but clearly it’s legal or the BBC wouldn’t air it. I’m not excusing what was said at all. The culture clearly needs to change. But is it fair to single out these particular officers when the problem is obviously widespread? I also felt some of the more junior officers had just absorbed the culture around them, and at times the journalist might have been nudging them into certain topics. A few of the comments even felt like dark humour or going along with pub chat. Still unacceptable, but if you secretly recorded doctors or other professions that probably use a lot of dark humour to get through it, I’m sure you’d hear things that would seem really callous to an outsider. Absolutely they should be fired/reprimanded, but do they deserve complete public exposure like this? AIBU to feel uncomfortable about it? YABU they deserve everything that’s coming their way YANBU it’s too much personal exposure when the real problem is the Met culture not these individual cops

SammyScrounge · 02/10/2025 15:04

Take a look at what what was happening on TV this morning Police officers clearing the public away from the danger.of a terrorist bomber. The police stood their ground, not knowing if there more terrorists about. No one is writing furiously about their courage and sense of duty.
I suppose that gets taken for granted.

BrickBiscuit · 02/10/2025 15:05

Bloodyscarymary · 02/10/2025 14:52

@Pigeonenglish I think you’ve isolated the wider issue quite well, exposing identities and focusing on individuals is all very well to get dramatic tv and maybe prove a point, but it doesn’t really delve into WHY the culture is so bad or suggest any ways to improve it, other than “let’s all say how disgusting we think these men are”.

A documentary that actually looked into why so many police officers at the met are this way would be more helpful.

Is it that they attract “bad apples” in the first place? Is it that somehow they promote “bad apples” more frequently which impacts the whole culture, is there something in the performance management that tends to see these types rise to the top that could be changed?

Or is it that most police officers do start their job full of good intentions and it’s just being on the coal face of the very worst and weird of society day after day that grinds them down and makes them start to see people as stereotypes/become callous?

Is it a combination of all three?

If police officers start out “good” and become bad apples due to the job - what can be done to support their mental health/outlook on people in an ongoing way so that they stay good and hopeful about their impact on society?

If the force is attracting sociopaths and promoting sociopaths - what can be changed recruitment and promotion wise to block those kinds of hires in the first place or change what is valued so they aren’t promoted.

I can’t see how catching out a few officers and publicly ruining their lives will solve anything.

I've just heard the BBC news in brief. The headline response is indeed 'don't worry, those disgusting people will be removed as soon as possible'. Nothing about the causes, the culture, the pervasiveness. Bad apples gone, barrel all good. Exactly as you feared.

Original poster

Bloodyscarymary · 02/10/2025 15:05

BrickBiscuit · 02/10/2025 09:58

But it's not proof of the hundreds of similar abuses going on in the Met every hour of every day due to a toxic culture. Naming and shaming a dozen individuals does not address that. More seriously, it enables the narrative that getting rid of a few bad apples that we now know about is addressing the issue. This covers up a failure to address the toxic culture. It could have been more effective to air the footage anonymised. The story is then a rotten barrel, not a few bad apples. The culprits could still have been reported and dealt with off the scene, but not been the main story.

Show quote history

Yes I agree. And junior officers will take the flack for this and nothing will change apart from everyone making a statement about how horrible all the police featured are.

There were also clips of statements in a wider conversation that were easy to take out of context. There was the guy on the smoke break who seemed to me to just be joking with the reporter that he joined the force so he could “get into legal scraps” because he, like the reporter, was a “Bermondsey boy” - it just seemed like banter to me and obviously not meant to be taken seriously, do we honestly think he was serious there, and given we just saw a snippet of the convo how could we even judge it beyond reasonable doubt anyway?

I just feel like there should be a higher threshold for reaching the level of public interest to green light exposing secret recordings of conversations with identities attached.

Where does it end? Should it be legal for any undercover reporter to get a nurse drunk and ask her what she really thinks about trans women in women’s wards and then put that online with her face, place of work and name?

OP posts:

Differentforgirls · 02/10/2025 15:20

Bloodyscarymary · 02/10/2025 14:52

@Pigeonenglish I think you’ve isolated the wider issue quite well, exposing identities and focusing on individuals is all very well to get dramatic tv and maybe prove a point, but it doesn’t really delve into WHY the culture is so bad or suggest any ways to improve it, other than “let’s all say how disgusting we think these men are”.

A documentary that actually looked into why so many police officers at the met are this way would be more helpful.

Is it that they attract “bad apples” in the first place? Is it that somehow they promote “bad apples” more frequently which impacts the whole culture, is there something in the performance management that tends to see these types rise to the top that could be changed?

Or is it that most police officers do start their job full of good intentions and it’s just being on the coal face of the very worst and weird of society day after day that grinds them down and makes them start to see people as stereotypes/become callous?

Is it a combination of all three?

If police officers start out “good” and become bad apples due to the job - what can be done to support their mental health/outlook on people in an ongoing way so that they stay good and hopeful about their impact on society?

If the force is attracting sociopaths and promoting sociopaths - what can be changed recruitment and promotion wise to block those kinds of hires in the first place or change what is valued so they aren’t promoted.

I can’t see how catching out a few officers and publicly ruining their lives will solve anything.

My dad was a police officer. He was never like these men. He, e.g., would run an out of control drunk person home rather than charge them if their behaviour was out of character. It didn't matter their colour, creed, sex, sexuality etc, they were all just people. He was really respected in our community. He would never have disrespected a pregnant woman or a young man with difficulties. Policing is hard. But people making excuses for these particular policemen should remember that for every one of them, there is another 1000 who have the same trauma but don't behave like them.

HeadNorth · 02/10/2025 15:21

SammyScrounge · 02/10/2025 15:04

Take a look at what what was happening on TV this morning Police officers clearing the public away from the danger.of a terrorist bomber. The police stood their ground, not knowing if there more terrorists about. No one is writing furiously about their courage and sense of duty.
I suppose that gets taken for granted.

Oh stop it. Lots of carers do heroic work caring every day for really challenging people. So that makes it OK that a few of them get fed up & verbally & physically abuse their charges? You are being ridiculous. The Police Officers behaviour is indefensible and it is blatantly correct to expose it. Any attempt to excuse it reflects extremely poorly on those doing so.

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:31

SammyScrounge · 02/10/2025 15:04

Take a look at what what was happening on TV this morning Police officers clearing the public away from the danger.of a terrorist bomber. The police stood their ground, not knowing if there more terrorists about. No one is writing furiously about their courage and sense of duty.
I suppose that gets taken for granted.

you absolutely can have one without the other.

pikkumyy77 · 02/10/2025 15:33

The point if the panorama show was to bring the public’s attention to the problem of everyday, taken for granted, misogyny , racism, and abusive behavior in the forces. That is the job of journalists—to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

The specific men identified are not the issue but without identifying them the same people who continually bleat that its just “a few bad apples” or “just bantz” will simply say “oh fake news.” Now its all “pity the poor menz with their hard jobs.”

Its all ridiculous—policing is not the hardest or most dangerous job in modern society at all —social workers, EMTS, firefighters et al work in the same conditions, often alone, without guns, and are expected to manage the same populations without whining all the time.

Look up the stats—factory and farm work results in more injuries and deaths per year than police work.

We have to stop excusing racism, violence, and misogyny as the rightful recreation of the warrior. The police force is not entitled to this deference and subservience because they “do such a hard job” or “have to deal with the public.” we all deal with violence, racism , abuse, fear and we are not therefore entitled to act out and abuse the very members of the public we are hired to protect and serve.

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:33

Bloodyscarymary · 02/10/2025 15:05

Yes I agree. And junior officers will take the flack for this and nothing will change apart from everyone making a statement about how horrible all the police featured are.

There were also clips of statements in a wider conversation that were easy to take out of context. There was the guy on the smoke break who seemed to me to just be joking with the reporter that he joined the force so he could “get into legal scraps” because he, like the reporter, was a “Bermondsey boy” - it just seemed like banter to me and obviously not meant to be taken seriously, do we honestly think he was serious there, and given we just saw a snippet of the convo how could we even judge it beyond reasonable doubt anyway?

I just feel like there should be a higher threshold for reaching the level of public interest to green light exposing secret recordings of conversations with identities attached.

Where does it end? Should it be legal for any undercover reporter to get a nurse drunk and ask her what she really thinks about trans women in women’s wards and then put that online with her face, place of work and name?

Show quote history

yup. Because there are ways of expressing opinions without being abusive.

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:34

pikkumyy77 · 02/10/2025 15:33

The point if the panorama show was to bring the public’s attention to the problem of everyday, taken for granted, misogyny , racism, and abusive behavior in the forces. That is the job of journalists—to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

The specific men identified are not the issue but without identifying them the same people who continually bleat that its just “a few bad apples” or “just bantz” will simply say “oh fake news.” Now its all “pity the poor menz with their hard jobs.”

Its all ridiculous—policing is not the hardest or most dangerous job in modern society at all —social workers, EMTS, firefighters et al work in the same conditions, often alone, without guns, and are expected to manage the same populations without whining all the time.

Look up the stats—factory and farm work results in more injuries and deaths per year than police work.

We have to stop excusing racism, violence, and misogyny as the rightful recreation of the warrior. The police force is not entitled to this deference and subservience because they “do such a hard job” or “have to deal with the public.” we all deal with violence, racism , abuse, fear and we are not therefore entitled to act out and abuse the very members of the public we are hired to protect and serve.

This. Absolutely this.

Change2banon · 02/10/2025 15:34

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 14:39

I’m not sure how to otherwise say it, sorry. I’m saying that it’s a pointless task, exposing a minority of officers in this way. It’s akin to swatting a few flies when you have an infestation. It needs tackling further up.

I suppose I question whether it will be ‘fixed’ @godmum56 . This way makes it really easy for the Met to sack these officers and carry on as if nothing happened, they give their line ‘racism etc is not tolerated’ and all stays the same.

It’s been what, thirty three years since Stephen Lawrence’s murder and the Met are STILL racist.

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That’s the thing though, it’s not a pointless task at all! If these particular men were not brought to justice by this undercover operation then they’d still be there getting away with it, continually keeping the environment toxic and horrific. Yes more needs to be done higher up, but you surely can’t say these men should stay in their jobs?

CurlewKate · 02/10/2025 15:36

Dappy777 · 01/10/2025 22:19

I’m increasingly suspicious of the BBC and its motivations. It is a left-wing organisation, and the left have always disliked the police, who they regard as “tools of the capitalist oppressors.” It’s hard to imagine the BBC exposing ANTIFA or Just Stop Oil, put it that way.

You see their left-wing bias everywhere. Radio 4 can’t even discuss Jane Austen or Tennyson without linking them to slavery or colonialism in some way.

Personally, I don’t think we give the police anywhere near enough credit or support. The majority of police officers I have met have been thoroughly decent men. If I had to deal with vicious, ignorant, foul-mannered little scumbags day in day out I’m sure I’d blurt out horrible and offensive things as well.

Edited

Since when has it been “left wing” to have an issue with colonialism or slavery? Or misogyny or racism? What a very strange attitude!

Simplestars · 02/10/2025 15:36

SammyScrounge · 02/10/2025 15:04

Take a look at what what was happening on TV this morning Police officers clearing the public away from the danger.of a terrorist bomber. The police stood their ground, not knowing if there more terrorists about. No one is writing furiously about their courage and sense of duty.
I suppose that gets taken for granted.

Sorry this does not make Racism or misogyny acceptable in any way shape or form.

Would you find it acceptable if Nurses, doctors or social workers behaved like this?

Change2banon · 02/10/2025 15:38

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Meadowfinch · 02/10/2025 15:43

I don't feel sorry for the individuals concerned. They will get exactly what they deserve, I hope, dismissal without pension benefits.

But anyone expecting this to change quickly is being unrealistic. Any police force reflects the population from which it is drawn, and misogyny is endemic throughout our society. Even if not spoken in public, it's there, expressed in men's rooms or football clubs or snooker halls. In regiments and political parties and schools.

It will take generations to even reduce it.

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:44

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 14:39

I’m not sure how to otherwise say it, sorry. I’m saying that it’s a pointless task, exposing a minority of officers in this way. It’s akin to swatting a few flies when you have an infestation. It needs tackling further up.

I suppose I question whether it will be ‘fixed’ @godmum56 . This way makes it really easy for the Met to sack these officers and carry on as if nothing happened, they give their line ‘racism etc is not tolerated’ and all stays the same.

It’s been what, thirty three years since Stephen Lawrence’s murder and the Met are STILL racist.

Show quote history

This way makes it really easy for the Met to sack these officers and carry on as if nothing happened, they give their line ‘racism etc is not tolerated’ and all stays the same.
As opposed not being exposed in this way and Met carrying on and doing nothing anyway? because you can bet your life that not even these people would get sacked if the program hadn't been televised. Again i refer you to The Post Office Scandal.
I don't think anybody is saying or believing that this is a quick fix, that Mark Rowley will go in like an avenging angel and the baddies will all be booted overnight. What i am saying is that if all the rats aren't dealt with on the first attempt, it doesn't mean that you give up and stop taking the proof to the person responsible.
What would be your alternative option?

Happyjoe · 02/10/2025 15:46

BrickBiscuit · 02/10/2025 15:05

I've just heard the BBC news in brief. The headline response is indeed 'don't worry, those disgusting people will be removed as soon as possible'. Nothing about the causes, the culture, the pervasiveness. Bad apples gone, barrel all good. Exactly as you feared.

Show quote history

If you see what else the top brass said this morning and that is that they're are currently half way through weedling their way through staff, getting rid of the bad eggs. Quite a few have already lost their jobs, in their hundreds since Sarah. They are not ignoring the issue imo.

Happyjoe · 02/10/2025 15:48

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:44

This way makes it really easy for the Met to sack these officers and carry on as if nothing happened, they give their line ‘racism etc is not tolerated’ and all stays the same.
As opposed not being exposed in this way and Met carrying on and doing nothing anyway? because you can bet your life that not even these people would get sacked if the program hadn't been televised. Again i refer you to The Post Office Scandal.
I don't think anybody is saying or believing that this is a quick fix, that Mark Rowley will go in like an avenging angel and the baddies will all be booted overnight. What i am saying is that if all the rats aren't dealt with on the first attempt, it doesn't mean that you give up and stop taking the proof to the person responsible.
What would be your alternative option?

Show quote history

Rowly said this morning that they're already going through the Met, quite a few have lost their jobs in the last few years. I do think they are trying, it's just not very quick but I guess legally it has to be proven.

Happyjoe · 02/10/2025 15:49

Meadowfinch · 02/10/2025 15:43

I don't feel sorry for the individuals concerned. They will get exactly what they deserve, I hope, dismissal without pension benefits.

But anyone expecting this to change quickly is being unrealistic. Any police force reflects the population from which it is drawn, and misogyny is endemic throughout our society. Even if not spoken in public, it's there, expressed in men's rooms or football clubs or snooker halls. In regiments and political parties and schools.

It will take generations to even reduce it.

Yes, there was a male poster here earlier who said he didn't think it was that bad but then he hears the same fairly often. We're going backwards.

Jellywife · 02/10/2025 15:49

Simplestars · 02/10/2025 15:36

Sorry this does not make Racism or misogyny acceptable in any way shape or form.

Would you find it acceptable if Nurses, doctors or social workers behaved like this?

Show quote history

Agree- It’s their job. It’s a difficult, challenging job which they knew when they signed up. You don’t get to be racist in some public jobs as some sort of odd perk.

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 15:54

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 15:44

This way makes it really easy for the Met to sack these officers and carry on as if nothing happened, they give their line ‘racism etc is not tolerated’ and all stays the same.
As opposed not being exposed in this way and Met carrying on and doing nothing anyway? because you can bet your life that not even these people would get sacked if the program hadn't been televised. Again i refer you to The Post Office Scandal.
I don't think anybody is saying or believing that this is a quick fix, that Mark Rowley will go in like an avenging angel and the baddies will all be booted overnight. What i am saying is that if all the rats aren't dealt with on the first attempt, it doesn't mean that you give up and stop taking the proof to the person responsible.
What would be your alternative option?

Show quote history

I don’t know @godmum56 , but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Otherwise it’s just paying lip service. I don’t work in the police and I can’t pretend I know what already exists. Instinctively I feel that more women, which means more family friendly policies, more supervision, less tolerance of ‘I was only saying’ are some things that spring to mind.

What I don’t like is this endless pattern by the BBC of ‘the met are racist.’ Well, revolutionary, I feel like saying. Caught on camera being racist, sacked; not caught on camera being racist (the majority) carry on as you ever were, nothing to see here. We have Done Something.

LakieLady · 02/10/2025 15:55

Pommes · 01/10/2025 22:07

YABU. Every one of those with their faces shown made disgusting comments and, even worse, reference to causing actual physical harm to people they had detained, including a 17 year old with Autism. My only sympathy sits with their female colleagues, their female victims and suspects from ethnic minority backgrounds for whom they applied their own ‘justice’, before collection of evidence and trial. Their behaviour is frightening and public shaming is the least they deserve. The documentary also highlighted examples of very good, compassionate, lawful policing. It’s excellent journalism, exploring depths of culture that the Met would never be able to truly explore.

This, 100%.

I was appalled by the attitudes expressed by many of the officers who appeared in the documentary and by the way casual racism and sexism appeared to be considered perfectly normal by many of them.

And I'm grateful to the makers of the documentary, and to the BBC for boradcasting it.

pikkumyy77 · 02/10/2025 16:13

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 15:54

I don’t know @godmum56 , but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Otherwise it’s just paying lip service. I don’t work in the police and I can’t pretend I know what already exists. Instinctively I feel that more women, which means more family friendly policies, more supervision, less tolerance of ‘I was only saying’ are some things that spring to mind.

What I don’t like is this endless pattern by the BBC of ‘the met are racist.’ Well, revolutionary, I feel like saying. Caught on camera being racist, sacked; not caught on camera being racist (the majority) carry on as you ever were, nothing to see here. We have Done Something.

Show quote history

This is such a passive, whiny, lazy take.

the BBC aren't the governing body here—you and the public are the ones who are to take this information and act. The BBC are doing their job—why don’t you do yours? Badger your MO. Call up your local police force and remind them that the days of impunity are numbered. Join a lical citizens oversight board. Demand account from the top not the mid level officers.

The Panorama story is the beginning of action not the end of action.

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 16:14

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 15:54

I don’t know @godmum56 , but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Otherwise it’s just paying lip service. I don’t work in the police and I can’t pretend I know what already exists. Instinctively I feel that more women, which means more family friendly policies, more supervision, less tolerance of ‘I was only saying’ are some things that spring to mind.

What I don’t like is this endless pattern by the BBC of ‘the met are racist.’ Well, revolutionary, I feel like saying. Caught on camera being racist, sacked; not caught on camera being racist (the majority) carry on as you ever were, nothing to see here. We have Done Something.

Show quote history

but that's the problem! So far the Met haven't done enough! I do think its the job of the media to keep on saying "Look this is still happening" ad infinitum. Its not actually media's job to take action, its media's job to keep pointing out where action needs to be taken. I genuinely don't know whether the Met's action so far has been lip service, or genuine. Should media stop bringing stuff to the attention of the public?

godmum56 · 02/10/2025 16:14

pikkumyy77 · 02/10/2025 16:13

This is such a passive, whiny, lazy take.

the BBC aren't the governing body here—you and the public are the ones who are to take this information and act. The BBC are doing their job—why don’t you do yours? Badger your MO. Call up your local police force and remind them that the days of impunity are numbered. Join a lical citizens oversight board. Demand account from the top not the mid level officers.

The Panorama story is the beginning of action not the end of action.

Show quote history

this!

Pigeonenglish · 02/10/2025 16:24

pikkumyy77 · 02/10/2025 16:13

This is such a passive, whiny, lazy take.

the BBC aren't the governing body here—you and the public are the ones who are to take this information and act. The BBC are doing their job—why don’t you do yours? Badger your MO. Call up your local police force and remind them that the days of impunity are numbered. Join a lical citizens oversight board. Demand account from the top not the mid level officers.

The Panorama story is the beginning of action not the end of action.

Show quote history

It’s the opposite of passive. It’s saying that in the thirty three years since Stephen Lawrence was murdered, the met have been exposed as institutionally racist and sexist numerous times. That doesn’t mean I’m shrugging and saying ‘oh well, nothing to be done.’ I’m saying that sacking a few officers caught in the act doesn’t even come close to what has to happen. It’s going to take a huge reform.

What is ‘whiny’ about that? I sort of understand passive but I really am not understanding what is ‘whiny’ about any of my points!

I think that the problem with this particular style of reporting is that it allows a little bit of dusting and polishing to take place and doesn’t do much else.