Flu nasal spray not vegetarian

[AhBiscuits]

DD9 is vegetarian. No one else in the family is. She's very strict about it and checks packets carefully for things like gelatin if she is unsure whether she can have something.

Just had the email from school about the flu nasal spray and it says in there that the spray contains pork gelatin. She would 100% refuse to entertain having this if she knew. I don't know whether the injection would be vegetarian, I assume so, but there is also no way she would have that. Maybe some people will say make her have the injection if she refuses the spray. I'm not convinced a nurse would inject a wriggling screaming child that I've had to physically drag through the door.

DD has a heart condition, she's had open heart surgery before, and her cardiologist always asks that she has any vaccines that are offered.

She had the spray last year, I must not have realised it wasn't vegetarian. She's been veggie for about 18 months.

I'm not decided on what I'll do but am interested to hear some different perspectives.

YABU - tell her and let her decide what she wants to do.
YANBU - keep quiet, let her have the spray for the greater good.

DD is a coordinator for VaxUK in our county. She advises that your daughter (or rather, you, as parent who signs the consent) can opt for the Intra Muscular (IM) injection.

Lots of vegetarians & vegan families opt for the IM dose, as do some for religious reasons (and conversely some Rabbi & Iman support both vaccines as the pork gelatin is highly processed into, I think, peptides for the live nasal vaccine).

Likewise, some parents opt for the IM vax due to the child or family member being immuno compromised, or the child preferring the IM over the nasal vaccine.

The important thing is getting the vaccine in whichever way you & your daughter prefer.

For Jews, there are two considerations.

1. You're not eating the vaccine.
2. It's a question of pikuach nefesh (saving a life). That is paramount.

So, the nasal spray is not a problem for us, though some might prefer the injection nonetheless. But the "can I have a porcine valve" question comes up, and the answer is always yes. If it were, say, a vitamin or supplement capsule, then you would be told you should try to find a kosher one (since a vitamin is both eaten and not strictly medically necessary). But all medicines prescribed by a doctor are fine. Back when insulin came from pigs, not only were we told it was fine but that we were required to use it if prescribed.

There's an alternative to pork gelatin. However this alternative is not totally vegetarian, depending how far you are taking your belief regarding cells.

I just wanted to offer you a perspective of a vegetarian child - I became veggie when I was about 8, and it lasted until I was 14. We used to eat some Linda McCartney products and Quorn mince, but years later my Dad told me that he used to also make the gravy with the meat juices, or serve normal mince and tell me it was Quorn. While I wouldn't do that to my child, I also don't resent my Dad for doing it - he was just doing what he thought was best at the time, and we laugh about it now. I don't know if that might help you think about it in a different way.

I would consider how she will take having a binary choice of injection or nasal spray: if you think she will be able to make a choice, then I would tell her that it's not veggie and let her choose. However,you say that there's no way she would want the injection, in which case I'd just let her have the nasal spray and not mention it. I expect it is tiny trace amounts of gelatin. I'd also add that even committed vegetarians might decide that the nasal spray is the least worst option for them and it won't affect the difference they make by being vegetarian in terms of their eating habits.

I’m a vegan and consented for both my children. My children have always been fed vegan and have an elementary understanding of our views (I won’t say they’re vegan because I’m not sure they’re yet old enough to make such a choice)

6yo DD understands the spray contains dead pig and that the vaccine is also not vegan but contains only small traces of animal products. She chose the spray (not having it not an option)

8yo DS is a very committed vegan (extremely black and while about it) but also very autistic with a severe needle phobia, the spray is the only potential option for him. I doubt they’ll get him to have it but I’ve consented.

We consider veganism to be doing the best you can to avoid animal products. There is no perfect vegan.

So I’d give her the choice and at 9 if she refuses entirely I’d let her too but I would explicitly state that refusing is an option. It’s spray or vaccine.

You should be able to request the vaccine as an injection. This is vegetatian/halal.

Did you ignore the part about the childs health?

Last I knew the nasal vaccine was more effective for children. My son and the rest of our family are vegetarian. He has the nasal flu vaccine every year. A lot of medication contains gelatine, such as capsules. Will you let her refuse amoxicillin for example if she has an infection? There’s liquid but it tastes disgusting. I take a few medications that are capsules. I don’t like it but it’s medicine, rather than a dietary choice. Otherwise I am extremely strict about what I eat and drink.

I didn’t realise and now torn whether to tell my vegetarian 11 year old!

This is v sensible

again: medicines are never vegetarian. animal testing is always involved (and for good reason)

medicines are not food so you don't become un-vegetarian or un-vegan by taking a medicine.

even major religions say you should take medicines even if they contain ingredients not usually allowed. in some cases there is no alternative.
the animal products used in medicine are there for a reason: to make the medicine safe in the form they are. or animal prodicts are part of the production, like vacccines are grown in live cell cultures (fertilised eggs, blood, other cells).

Jewish faith leaders give permission for Jewish nhs colleagues to have the flu vaccine. My dd doesn’t eat pork by choice including haribo etc but she does have the vaccine. I’ve explained and we had an ethical discussion. My parents are both undergoing cancer treatments so I would like her to have it (dd is 14). That said, I do believe in being honest with dc and I wouldn’t mislead her.

Not for the health of the child it doesn't - makes me laugh when people put 'practice nurse' as if that ends the conversation.

Only a cursory search of NHS websites indicates that isn't the case

However, if your child is at high risk from flu due to one or more medical conditions or treatments and can’t have the nasal flu vaccine they should have the flu vaccine by injection.

The nasal is better for herd immunity, but that isn't the same as being better for an individual.

www.england.nhs.uk/north-west/keeping-you-well/nhs-vaccination-information/flu-vaccination-information/injectable-alternative-for-children/

Actually the nasal vaccine IS more effective in children, but the injection is a viable alternative and better than having no vaccine at all in children where the live nasal vaccine is contraindicated or unacceptable to them.

I'm vegan. My guiding principle is to avoid animal stuff where possible. If we regard vaccinations etc as being essential, and there isn't an alternative, then it might just not be possible to avoid it in this case. In that situation, I'd just do it and not worry about it - we can only do our best, and there are no points for 'purity'.

I'd just tell her. Most vaccines contain some sort of animal cells. The GP does do an alternative flu injection that doesn't contain any animal products. I know someone who is allergic to eggs and the GP give her a different vaccine for flu.

I’d keep quiet this year as there probably isn’t time to get an alternative, and request the vegan flu vaccine (injection) for next year.
I was told the nasal spray was more effective for children than the jab. My child had asthma and I would have kept quiet at that age - I don’t think 9 is mature enough to decide on medical issues like this, especially if they are not mature enough to accept a needle jab.

She has a heart issue that means she needs this vaccinations. As a parent we make decisions sometimes that our kids don’t like / agree with but are made for their own sake / safety. This is one of those. If she’s grown up enough to refuse the nasal spray as it has pork gelatine, then she’s grown up enough to understand it’s required and have the injection instead.

This

id explain to her that being a vegetarian she’ll come across this dilemma quite often in her life and that at times she may have to take non vegetarian meds but that it won’t take away from her being vegetarian.

I’m vegan and I have had half of my pancreas removed and need to take an enzyme called Creon for the rest of my life which contains pork.
There’s no alternative to it but without it I would become malnourished and suffer from malabsorption as the half of my pancreas that is left can’t take out the essential nutrients from food.

Im sure your DD will in time come to accept that where her health is concerned that sometimes she really will have to take some medication that isn’t vegetarian.

God bless her for her beliefs and commitment to trying to alleviate animal suffering and cruelty.

The paperwork from DS’s school said that the nasal spray is more effective.

I think @Mollydolly1991 has given excellent advice.

I know that Muslims normally avoid pork / pig derivatives but one of the vaccinations required for Hajj has something pork derived in it.

But as it is 'to save life' Muslims take it.

Oh I forget the say, if you cough when you are being injected you don't feel it as much.

If this helps, I’m vegan, and was a vegetarian for many years before. I’ve always separated medication from my personal beliefs. Vegetarianism and veganism is about making adjustments where reasonably possible, not at all costs. If the injection is just as good as the spray and is easy to obtain, then fine, but taking the spray doesn’t mean she’s not a vegetarian anymore.

Laugh away.
For the health of the child it does. The nasal route of administration is crucial because the virus normally enters the body through the nasal passages and throat. Fluenz activates both the innate and adaptive immune system at this entry point creating a more robust and localised immunity compared to the injectable vaccine.
Yes, it is also easier to administer.
Practice nurse.