To think it's a bit harsh to say people who've never worked shouldn't get benefits?

[DonaldBiden]

Was reading another thread where many were saying if someone has never worked they shouldn't get any benefits but couldn't comment because it had reached 1000 comments.

I know this might be an unpopular opinion but I don't agree because that would include young mums who can't work because they have a baby to look after. Most of them will get a job when their child is a little older. Why are they any different from older mums who've fallen on hard times and need help?

And I know people will say it's because they've never worked and haven't proven themselves unlazy etc and could be on the dole forever but why should they have their lives ruined just because of something people think MIGHT happen.

Why can’t the young 17 year old mum live at home with her parents? Why should teen mums automatically be given social housing? We’ve seen this first hand where mother has had to effectively make her pregnant daughter homeless so she qualified for a council place, there was no relationship breakdown and she had room at the family home to have the grandchild, why should it become the states responsibility, maybe pass it back to the family.

The classic I'll twist what you say and joyously claim you agree with me post. When really you know they are very different points.

No, that's the property in Spain.

If this is in any way true, please sign me up! I'm sure most people would jack in their jobs tomorrow for this bullcrap lifestyle

Well lots of people do it! so it can't be that bad.

I don't think we should threaten people with forced abortion/newborn removal etc - but you have to be realistic. Hope is not action. It's not working. If a woman is in a situation where she has never worked and is single with a baby and claiming benefits, you must be able to see that when this happens on a large scale, society can't foot the bill? I think we are already in this situation. I would like to see help for a person in this situation in the form of an advisor, a residential unit or childcare or whatever. But practical help. Not fluffy hope.

I think that reads that you come from a place of great privilege. I’m glad you have a supportive family and that’s where your mind first went to.

there is though
free hours, tax free hours, go back to uni and get 85% of it paid plus grants etc

theres always a way, people just dont!

I don't expect to pay for everyone elses kids, i work and wanted more kids but££ stopped that!
Now I just pay for the (some!) lazy scroungers who do not want to work

Those other people took responsibility for their choices. You asked other people to be responsible for yours.
FWIW I'm glad we support children, but we need to be honest about what is actually happening here. There's far too much dancing around the issue of who is actually paying for what or for how long. It's very unhelpful in the long run.

There are no winners. It costs the state a load of money, it leads to bad outcomes for the children, and in the long term it leads to bad outcomes for the mothers. Everyone one losses.

It’s ‘irrational on every level’ to think that a humane society should threaten women with forced abortions or removal of their newborn babies, to be put in the traumatising care system. This would end up costing the state so much more than the benefits you are so adamant people should not receive.

We aren’t living in Gilead.

In my case I’d been removed from my mother’s care due to her being a psychotic alcoholic who continued to have contact with her paedophile father.

By 17 I had already had a lot of experience of parenting as I’d raised my brothers (and myself).

There are numerous circumstances in which a teen mother shouldn’t or couldn’t be supported by her own parents. My mother couldn’t even look after herself, never mind anybody else.

If you are feckless parents and do not educate your kids about contraceotion or make it clear that you will not support them financially you have failed miserably as a parent. And so the process continues..... this is why it needs to STOP.

Do what, claim benefits?

According to gov data just under 8m received universal credit. Out of the working population I'd guess that's around a quarter of adults. Let's also not forget a fair portion of those will be in receipt of UC and will be in work.

Unfortunately, I cannot find the stats on how many UC claimants also own property in Spain.

This is the cycle. You are far more likely to be a teenage mother if you come an unsupportive, unresourced family, but in turn you become the unresourced family who can't then support, leading to a much high chance of your children having teenage pregancies themselves. Obviously not everyone falls into these catagories - some people can break the cycle but most don't.

What do you think could help break this cycle?

Of course anyone not capable or simply in between jobs deserves benefits.
A decent society doesn't just let people starve if they don't work.

I'd say it's fair that if you have worked, then the more NI you've paid so you should get a more generous benefit. But those who never have still need something.

This doesn't go for people with severe disabilities from birth who can't work because of that.

If the person has no medical reason for having never worked then presumably if they weren't seeking it then they could have their benefits cut off. So that situation is already the case? Which is harsh but fair. If someone can work then they really should. Unless they're so rich they don't need to.

Hope isn’t ’fluffy’. Hope is a powerful motivation that can prevent someone ending their lives, that can help someone out of the cycle of poverty. People need to have the hope that a different life is possible, and that they can aspire to greater things than they’ve seen and had modelled to them their whole lives. When you’ve grown up in poverty and social deprivation, and all your family and friends are on benefits, this becomes your norm. Hope can inspire change so don’t be so dismissive of it.

On the whole education. This is what has reduced the numbers of teenage pregnancies over the past decades. Then remove the incentives - I think the number will further reduce if they know they wouldn't get the flat and money. As I said before there are no winners with teenage pregancy, it is generally has bad outcomes from the children, bad outcomes for the mothers, and a huge cost to the state to achieve these bad outcome.

Op this is a slippery slope, I had a baby at 16 and had never had a job or been to college or even finished GCSE’s.
I never found meaningful work and had another baby when that one was 13 and another 2 after that.
I am 43 now with another baby and have never been able to get a job.
I have lied my way into a few but it’s soon obvious you can’t walk the walk.
I’m lucky my husband supports me and I’ve had some inheritance so I have my own home.
Decisions you make young do affect your future, I never thought being a mum at 16 would mean I would only ever be a mum.
Why did I keep having babies? Because it’s the only meaning my life’s ever had. Am I happy? Never have been.

Well one, some people don't have help from family. So you had a privilege in that. I'm not being funny but isn't this what Reform wants? Looking after our own? I bet you, if you asked her, she deserves every penny of that support because she's British and has given birth to five new British kids. So many people are anti immigration and also angry at people who are having British kids they can't really afford.

Not saying this is you by the way.

But instead of being angry at your neighbour why not do the same yourself? If it's such a charmed and easy life.

10 years of work to qualify for state pension and it should be the same for state benefits.

@Bumblebee72 I was just curious about your opinion. I agree that education is important, and access to education. I think there needs to be more access to education and training in areas of higher social deprivation. I think it would be more helpful to focus on showing children possibilities and alternative ways of living life, and practical help with that (through educational and training opportunities and mentorship) than removing ‘incentives’. As a civilised society we could not let young mothers and babies live on the streets. There will be young mothers who have dysfunctional, abusive home lives that will need independent housing to have any hope of raising their child in a non-abusive environment.

If you have been raised in a house where a life on benefits is normal, all your friends are the same, teen pregnancies are normal then this becomes your normal. Especially in areas of higher social deprivation, where there are fewer job and educational opportunities. If you have never known your parents to have jobs, to enjoy work or get any satisfaction from paid employment then it’s not hard to see where the demoralisation starts. We need to be showing young people that they do have options and opportunities, and making sure these actually exist.

She has more family support than me. My brother couldn't mind my children long term, it was so I could take the job and get out of my abusive marriage. I then arranged my own childcare.
Plus she would get help with childcare.
She could get more money if she worked as I said in a previous post.
We are not British.
No way would I be on benefits, I would go mad at home all day.
I've raised my children to be hard workers and they are.
Immigrants are a different matter altogether.

Before we talk about getting people with disabilities into work or the "I've got x, x and x and I work just fine!", as I've seen elsewhere on the thread, can we tackle business absence rules making it impossible to keep a job as a disabled person?

I'd need around a week off sick every month, plus odd days here and there, but it's guaranteed that every 4-6 weeks (usually 4), I'd be off for a week. Look at threads on here about frequently absent colleagues; I'd be hated by my colleagues and sacked very quickly, regardless of disability. Until we change the way absence rules are enforced and introduce proper protections for disabled people, we can't talk about getting disabled people back into work. That isn't even starting on changing the attitudes of the colleagues of disabled people.

I'm currently on benefits while I retrain in a field that will allow me to set my own hours and work what I'm able to, but I'm lucky to have the support at home and the level of ability that will allow me to do that. Not everyone has that.

@DontGoJasonWaterfalls There will be people on MN better qualified than me to offer advice on disability related absence and reasonable adjustments, however one such adjustment is often the removal or increase of absence trigger points. So that the sickness is considered disability absence and is therefore not counted as sickness. Under the equality act, employers need to show they have considered reasonable adjustments such as flexible and home working. If you still needed a week off every month despite adjustments, I do not know whether that would be feasible or not as it would really depend on the type of work/industry.

I agree that it is very difficult for those with disabilities to find and keep jobs, and employers need to be more flexible and inclusive. Good luck with your re training!