To think it's a bit harsh to say people who've never worked shouldn't get benefits?

[DonaldBiden]

Was reading another thread where many were saying if someone has never worked they shouldn't get any benefits but couldn't comment because it had reached 1000 comments.

I know this might be an unpopular opinion but I don't agree because that would include young mums who can't work because they have a baby to look after. Most of them will get a job when their child is a little older. Why are they any different from older mums who've fallen on hard times and need help?

And I know people will say it's because they've never worked and haven't proven themselves unlazy etc and could be on the dole forever but why should they have their lives ruined just because of something people think MIGHT happen.

@betsip You really need to start your own thread - your post is getting lost because this thread is on another topic.

I have a massive problem with Mumsnet HQ deleting my post where I explain that I will be looking after my adult child financially and emotionally until the day I die.

It's completely mealy mouthed to leave standing posts that are deeply deeply offensive to parents of disabled adults telling us that we should be expected to look after our children and not rely on tax payer's money to fund them, and then delete the response, presumably because it says, literally, "oh eff off".

I completely stand by that 'eff off'. Personal attacks come in many guides and I happen to feel personally attacked by the ignorance of avaricious people who clearly have no idea what it's like to have adult children with significant disabilities.

Then that should be quite the incentive to avoid getting pregnant. Contraception is free in this country.
Paying for people to make bad life choices is completely irrational.

@Velvian AMEN 🙏🙏🙏🙏

In the old days unemployment benefit was a proportion of your previous salary which made sense.

I think benefits should have a low baseline universal amount and the rest should be a proportion based on the tax you've paid over the previous ten years so it's capped for moderate and high earners.

But I also think there should be some form of government work that's available to those who want to work but can't. Like Remploy used to or those kind of jobs such as litter picking (better examples are available).

The problem is cost of living. Work needs to genuinely pay. Benefits should only provide a baseline existence. I don’t want to live in a society where we don’t take care of our genuinely vulnerable but equally as a parent of ND kids I think the pendulum has swung to far. We should be encouraging everyone to support themselves as best they can, and frankly we need to raise the bar significantly. The state should be supporting the majority to provide for themselves not encouraging them to stay at home dependent.

Both are unethical, shaming tactics. 🙄

You would wear one because everyone knows that no single form of contraception is 100% reliable. And using a condom protects both partners from the risk of a number of sexually transmitted infections.

Personally I think there should be an 'incentive' to avoid creating pregnancy. Perhaps by making it a criminal offence for a man to fail to prevent a pregnancy if is unable or unwilling to support a child. A few prosecutions in, we might find men would be rushing for that free contraception and refusing to have sex unless it was used. Wouldn't that be great?

Agreed. We need a poll on this?

I genuinely wonder why some people stay on benefits though. I've given this example before, but one of my DH's friends is a single mum who's been on benefits for 17 years. Literally the whole time her only daughter has been a child, she's not worked. 😳

I have to say, I know her daughter isn't well now as I think she's got ME or possibly long Covid, but the mother is just lazy as much as I can tell. Apart from a back problem, she's been healthy and not had any other physical or mental health problems, so I can't understand why she's not worked. And once her DD turns 18 in January, she will lose the child benefits.

I know it's not an example representing everyone, but it bloody annoys me how she's been able to claim long term benefits. Surely there must be some sanctions in place to ensure she at least tries to find work after a certain period of time? 🤔😳

If 15 YO gets pregnant, who should be 'punished' for this? The girl? The father? Her parents (as she is a child)? The boy's parents? I mean, it's already the girl isn't it, what more do you want from her?

Not much changes when it comes to trampling over girls and women for their choices or circumstances of fate.

Yeah, I agree with others that really is not a good example to use and base your views on OP.

There are parents who are unable to work due to illness / disability / accident etc.

There are parents who fall on hard times, due to job loss / bereavement / divorce.

There are parents who have children and go back to work in some capacity, using either family help or paid childcare to look after their babies, and after school clubs / wraparound care when they are older and at school.

BUT

Then you have the parents who actively choose not to work, but decide to have children. I have seen this so many times; as soon as one baby is toddling and the parents can get free childcare, they have another one, then another. Who is paying for this? The people who get off their arse, go to work day in, day out and pay their taxes. My DH is past retirement age, and is still working full time and is still paying his taxes.

Why should the taxpayer keep funding their life choices and decision not to work at all? It's no wonder the hardworking people in this country are getting so p**d off! 😡

I agree with you because nothing in this world is ever black and white.
A 16 year old is not mature, not thinking of the future so why punish an innocent baby born to a venerable young lady?
Yes ideally benefits shouldn't be paid forever to someone who's never worked but in the real world there are always exceptions.

There are. People are pushed hard into work with sanctions in the form of benefit loss if they don't comply with directives aimed at getting a job. If your Hs friend has not had this, it will be because she is exempt for some reason. From what you've said, likely on health grounds or as a carer for her DD. Alternatively its possible she claims nothing and lives off support from DDs father, her family, an inheritance or similar. Has she confided her full financial and medical details to her friend your H, and he passed them on to you?

But doesn't this assessment by a professional already exist? An even if you make the assessment even more stringent, how do you make employers offer opportunities to disabled people? We all know there are laws against discrimination, but yet plenty of people will be able to tell you their own stories be it age/sex/maternity/race/disability discrimination.

Depends on the person.

My younger son is 25 and has never worked. He's not capable and needs 24/7 supervision. When I can no longer care for him he will need to be placed into a secure unit for adults with complex needs and aggressive behaviours.

He gets uc and enhanced rate pip.

Anyone who tries to tell me he's not entitled because he's never had a job can fuck right off.

Apparently you should be supporting him yourself forever and not relying on tax payers according to some of the good people on this thread.

Yes it does and it is rigorous. My son had to have full assessments and evidence from his GP and other medical professionals

For his pip he had to go to an assessment centre. We had to take him and we put it is writing that they must not at any point let him get between them and a door, that they should understand that asking him question after question is likely to trigger an aggressive response from him and if at any point we told them to leave the room they must do it immediately.

He still had the assessment, and we said if he does anything to you, we will not be held responsible because we clearly warned you.

I honestly don't know how all these supposed fakers that everyone who is anti benefits knows do it because me and everyone I know has had to fight every step of the way for everything. From what used to be called a Statement but is now an ehcp, to getting direct payments, to getting pip and uc.

Its fight fight fight. Over 20 years of fighting for scraps of support and money.

Then I read how someone's next door neighbour tells everyone down the pub how they lied on a form 10 years ago and have been raking it in ever since and I can't help but think that's bollocks.

And they can fuck right off too.

I'll send him round their houses and they can tell him he's a sponger who isn't entitled to government care and support.

If someone is physically and mentally disabled to the point they can't work I have a lot of sympathy. Is it possible to still have a happy life?

I cannot imagine what life must be like for them.

I cannot fathom what it must be like to be mentally incapacitated to the point you cannot live independently.

16 year olds are children - they are still their parents responsibility to fund.

there was a mum at DDs primary school who had never worked (quite a few) but clearly she has some learning difficulties and has been let down consistently. She left school with nothing. I don’t think she could work and I doubt she had any actual diagnosis, she was probably left to get on with it in school in the 80/90s. I imabine there are a lot of people like her who slipped through the gaps early on.

Her mother is estranged, her late father was an alcoholic, and her brother isn't any position to help her. No inheritance from anyone as far as I know.

I'm not privvy to her health problems to be honest, but I don't think there's an underlying reason why. But I've managed to work for years after I had a head injury and post concussion syndrome, so I think it's possible to work after a disability or health problem.

Other countries have systems for this. Look at Spain. There is a very scant benefits system, but enough to prevent someone being genuinely unable to eat. Until 2020 it was exclusively a pay in system: 1 month of unemployment benefit is earned by 6 months of work and is calculated at a rate of 70% of your last wage. Also the maximum you can accrue is 2 years worth and then once back in work you start accruing again. During COVID a new benefit was added which is Minimum income, but is very low, such as 600€ which is meant to cover everything including rent/ mortgage. Choosing a lifestyle of living on benefits is not possible.