ID cards to be introduced. What do you feel. ?

[Fishingboatbobbingnight]

I have worked in serious organised crime for two decades. This is one of the best bits of news I have read in a long while. I have also been involved in ‘small boat’ arrivals. The reason people will by pass several safe EU countries to get to the UK is ‘I can get lost if I don’t get asylum’ ‘UK has no ID cards’ . It’s a no brainer .. why why has it taken so long. ? If you want to have the services your country has to offer - through most of the world - from healthcare to the library- you need to show you are a bona-fida citizen. However , for some unfathomable reason , the flag waving right wingers are always the one to oppose ..is it because they are scared it will work and leave their thinly veiled racism floundering ?

Yes to ID cards = YANBU
No to ID cards = YABU

Because some people here would rather stick pins in their eyes than be regarded as a British Citizen.
HTH

They wouldn't have to be regarded as a British citizen. They could use their Irish ID as an alternative.

I already have a passport and a government issued bus pass. Why do I need yet another form of photo ID?

So basically, there's a substantial minority of people there who don't view themselves as British, just Irish. The Good Friday Agreement provides for people in NI to be British, Irish or both, and for parity of esteem between the identities. For the proportion of the population who want to be Irish only, and don't claim their right to British citizenship, they're currently able to access services, prove their right to work etc with Irish passports where documentation is needed. No problem.

But if a compulsory ID card scheme is extended to NI, lots of those people won't like it. Here is Michelle O'Neill, the First Minister, on the issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yv2gj5pd4o

There isn't a direct Irish equivalent of what's being proposed, so it's either a special rule for NI or an expectation that a group of people who clearly aren't going to have it avail themselves of a UK ID.

This civil service and any government you wish to name - do not do IT projects well. They are always very expensive (I think they shop at the "I saw you coming shop") and overrun and are unworkable.

GMP computer system didn't work, and that cost cost £27M
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/25488659.gmp-names-date-failing-system-will-finally-replaced/

The procurement process alone for a new one:
She revealed a £726,000 ‘procurement process’ in 2022 and 2023 failed to find a new IT supplier, and a second process launched last spring is set to conclude shortly.

It's almost like they like wasting taxpayers money.

We have a driving licence system and One.Gov which I've had to register on recently which is effectively an ID system.
Why re-invent the wheel if not to absolutely make some company rich.
Maybe an extra category of 'driving licence' for those who can't legally drive might be useful rather than a whole new system.

And let's not consider the data security side because that's a whole book of disasters just like the procurement and IT systems nonsense.

I don't trust any civil servants - you only have to look at the TWAW nonsense to know how they follow completely insane agendas and there are strong feelings about the makeup of staff at the home office who are currently also not acting entirely in the UK's best interests.

Still not convinced it's a bad idea?

Let's then look at what extra enforcement would be needed to ensure that these new ID cards actually useful? More police needed for checking staff at all the usual high risk areas - they don't do enough of this now, where will the extra staff time come from? And without changes to the EHCR and legal aid being pissed up the wall to the detriment of UK citizens then even if someone doesn't have an ID card and is working illegally or otherwise abusing the state then how will we get rid of them?

List me 5 ways the enforcement could happen to make the UK a better place - and put those steps in place now before they waste a penny on any ID card system.
Convince me it'll be useful and of benefit to the tax payer before you do anything else.

But these issues aren't connected.

Millions of people who are not UK citizens - and I mean, are not UK citizens in any way, shape or form, not UK citizens who don't like to think of themselves as UK citizens - live and work in the UK.

If the ID scheme is to work, there has to be a form of it which extends to non-citizens. So either you accept people's national ID from their own country as an alternative, or you have a version of the ID for non-citizens which acknowledges that they are non-citizens but are legally in the UK. Northern Irish people could have the option for theirs to say "Irish" rather than "British" if they want.

Yes. I missed that very important bit..... note to self to not try to multitask. Am obviously rubbish at it...

What Irish ID? There isn't an equivalent. Many NI people were born and live in the North ( therefore pay UK taxes, have the NHS, send there kids to school there etc.) BUT have Irish passports, and would say they're Irish not British. Some say they are both Irish and British, and have both passport. Some very much consider themselves British and only have UK passports... see the issue yet?
The GFA protects the right of the people of NI to be Irish/British/Both and telling the population they need a 'Brit' card contravenes this.

It might seem stupid to people in England but this ability to hold either or both citizenship and identify that way is one of the things that is holding this peace together.

'Irish people could have the option for theirs to say "Irish" rather than "British" if they want.'

Oh, okay and where on the press releases did it say that?

An Irish passport is an Irish ID.

Nothing about having a national ID scheme precludes Northern Irish people from identifying as British or Irish or both.

mmm, I think you find there are already Human Rights lawyers saying it does... have you seen the proposed cards?

Well if the scheme cannot have any features which are not on the press release, I guess we can all stop worrying about having CCTV cameras in our living rooms and being blocked from buying shit on Amazon because Big Brother has flagged up that we got a parking ticket last week, can't we?

The policy is in its infancy, mate. Plenty of time to iron out any genuine legal issues.

Human rights lawyers famously say all kinds of shit that isn't actually true.

You are keen. Starmer will be pleased.

The version of ID for non-citizens is not going to be an option in NI, because it would still be UK issued. It will not be accepted by everyone. You really do need to understand this. Solely Irish citizens living in NI and utilising their GFA rights to be recognised as such are not the same as, say Pakistani citizens living in Wales, or other groups who we know already accept UK state issued documentation that states they're non-citizens.

So what we'd have to do is accept Irish IDs, but as has now been pointed out repeatedly, there isn't a direct Irish equivalent of what's being proposed here. I suppose there is one alternative to an NI exemption which is to give all Irish citizens everywhere in the UK an opt out, maybe even some from other countries if you like, but that's going to be rather politically problematic too!

Is this not what your passport and national insurance number is for? What’s the point?

It does nothing to deter people working illegally.

You are being unreasonable for using a loaded thread seemingly inviting views of an important issue, to make prejudicial comments and goading accusations smearing people in advance for a perfectly reasonable and valid view they may take on the matter.

People don't get to choose whether or not to accept democratically passed laws.

Having some form of ID which is issued by the UK government if this becomes a legal requirement does not mean you are accepting being recognised as a UK citizen.

The Good Friday Agreement protects important rights, but it doesn't give a small number of people who choose to continue living in the UK despite apparently hating the UK the right to dictate what the UK government does.

I think we would all need to see a much better argument that having an ID system contravenes the Good Friday Agreement than simply "some people won't like it".

Lot of people don't like lots of things. That doesn't make them illegal or impossible.

mistressofthedarkside

The government quite literally can't put cameras recording in your homes!!

It would constitute making indecent images/videos of children for one.

There's masses of law around this, there's a basic right to privacy in your own home.

People need to stop conspiracy theorising. This is a normal thing which loads of other democratic countries have, which is very effective in reducing illegal working, black market trading, tax evasion etc.

Lmao you don't know much about NI do you?!

But to be clear, is your position that the UK will accept Irish IDs to exempt people from the digital UK system and thus privilege Irish citizens (in NI or throughout the UK?) over British or that it will dictate to everyone in NI that they're going to have a UK issued digital ID whether they like it or not, there'll definitely be no successful legal challenge and they'll all go along with it?

Why are so many pp obsessing about apps and smartphones?
It's a digital ID that being proposed. That means a person has given their fingerprints or iris scan plus visual facial photo and this information is tied to an ID. In most European countries this information is then imbedded into a chip on a physical card. Which as a past pp pointed out can be read via a chip reader.
So a physical card and/or a e-version is possible. Take your own choice to suit you.
By the way, the same information (fingerprints, facial scan, passport information) will be given by every non-European going to Europe from mid October (EES). So can I assume those against the idea of digital ID cards by the British government will forgo their European holidays to avoid handing over their details to foriegn governments🤔

Plenty of other countries require everyone to have a government issued ID whether they are citizens or not, and the sky has not fallen in. It has nothing to do with what citizenship you hold or how you identify.

And speaking as someone who was jumping up and down shouting, "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT!" in 2016 and "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO!" in 2017, I saw the problem very clearly then, but this? This is just a tantrum.

Havent The U.S. done this for years? I seem to remember a thumbprint scanner and a look into here at an airport over a decade ago.

I'm not sure I understand the implications of of us having them, but coming so quickly on the back of the online safety act I do feel that there is an underlying motive that the government is positioning itself to make sure nothing is ever anonymous or to curtail free speech in some way.

Why does it feel like the same people who embraced masks and lockdowns are all for this digital id? Sunny uplands of government benevolence?