To wonder why the government isn’t building more flats?

[Clawdya]

I was in Europe last week and apartment living is completely normal and desirable. Blocks are warm, well-insulated and comfortable, cheaper to run and heat, use up less green space. We have a dire housing shortage.

Why aren’t more blocks of flats being built for social housing?

No one wants flats. If you’re in any of the home swapping groups on Facebook, everyone has an autistic child who needs access to a private garden.

Because a large proportion of British people are selfish assholes who don't respect neighbours. Loud music, leaving their crap out in landings, smoking weed. I work in housing for a local authority and most of our workload is from tenancy management of flats, despite it only making up about 30% of our stock.

Some flats are better than others. We’re in a pre-war 4-in-a-block type, have a front door into our private driveway and front garden, and then a massive back garden that’s shared with downstairs (we technically have our own sides but we’ve always been happy to share the whole lot with our neighbours as long as they don’t take the piss, it’s empty and up for sale now though so we’ve been enjoying the whole lot to ourselves for a while). We have lovely high ceilings and large rooms as well as a converted loft. We only really join onto two neighbours which you’d have in a terraced house too but we never hear our neighbours anyway, I think the solid stone walls help there but we do have nice neighbours anyway.

But all the flats I’m seeing being built now are in older buildings that are being converted quickly to get as many properties in as possible so they all seem to have thin walls, the tiniest shower room (a bathroom if you’re lucky), small bedrooms (often just one or if it’s a two bed the second one isn’t much more than a box room) and a teensy open-plan kitchen/living room that barely has space for a two seater sofa in the living area.

I love the flat we’re in, once we get up our stairs it’s just like being in a bungalow really, but I wouldn’t want to live in any of the newer built ones around here.

I think this thread illustrates the problem. Brits think flats = shitty accommodation. I’ve lived in mainland Europe and I know the sort of place you mean (perhaps the US-style “apartment” would give a better idea?)

UK flats are high-rise, which European ones are not, the play areas are seen as unsafe, they have tiny bedrooms and no storage. This one’s a bit expensive but illustrates the point:

www.engelvoelkers.com/de/en/exposes/de6f782e-5325-5294-9bdd-6e8ffd0a7024

I don’t want to live in one as a family with children. And I don’t think it’s a healthy way to live, personally speaking.

I like a house with a garden. Private outdoor space is essential. The block of flats we lived in had a playground for the children, but it’s inconvenient to be going up and down every time they want to play. And I couldn’t let them go by themselves to play in case there was an accident or injury, I had to be there with them. Noisy neighbours above and below were an issue. It’s inconvenient with shopping and pushchairs and small children and it’s not as easy as popping out your own front door.

It was also very lonely and isolating living in the flat; I didn’t meet any neighbours, we were all atomised individuals living in our own little cells. I don’t think it’s a natural or healthy way to live. Being ‘down to earth’ is more convenient and there’s more sense of community. In the flat, sometimes it was such an effort getting in and up it made me less likely to want to go out again; once I was in, I stayed in. Now, I meet the neighbours on the street and we have a chat and get to know each other. I’d never live in a flat again if I had any other choice.

I grew up in a flat in the center of a European city, I know the type of flat you mean and it isn’t comparable to the ones found in the UK. I am comfortable living in a flat so we bought a new build one (in London, with a high mortgage). We are lucky that it’s not a massive block (20 flats) and most is privately owned, I know some neighbours, we socialise and we have a WhatsApp group. BUT there is a lack of storage space and bedrooms are small compared to Europe, the service charges are so high and the managing company is nowhere to be found, and also we have so many issues with the social tenants (a few flats are for social housing, as noted above for planning permissions). Fly tipping that we foot the bill for, noises, shouting in the middle of the night, music, aggressive dogs, hoarding, drug use. I love living in a flat but there are too many negatives out of my control, plus the square footage is so small compared to a typical European flat.

Yes the flats aren’t great and who wants selfish noisy neighbours

even the new build detached 4 bed houses are small these days.

living in a box

Where in Europe were you? In Spain a large number of affordable flats are old, cold in the winter and a sweat box in the summer and expensive to run due to the cost of living rising exponentially compared to salaries. The new flats that are warm and comfortable are on the whole unaffordable to most people as salaries here are so dire.

Social housing here is virtually non existent as is any kind of help from the government to help pay towards your rent.

Presuming you’re in the UK then you’re also in Europe this week. Why do people always talk about Europe as a separate place?!

Leasehold is a pain. High service charges that can increase astronomically for poor service. Also the length of a lease can be an issue and expensive if you need to extend it. People like to have some outside space.

I work for a house builder in the midlands and apartments are a nightmare to sell, no one wants them. The lack of outdoor space, the risk of a crappy neighbour above you then not to mention the lease/management company/extra added fees!!

I live in an Edinburgh tenement flat. 1870s built, marble fireplaces, coving, ceiling roses, working wooden shutters, 3.2m high ceilings, 3 bedrooms, 125meters squares. Shared (big) garden. No ground rent (we don’t really have leasehold here). Lots of neighbours have kids and we are in an excellent school catchment. Park is one minute walk away, swimming pool less than ten minutes, city centre 15 minutes walk away.

Lots of my London friends (where I’m from) ask why I bought a flat/when I’m going to move to a house. I won’t - because I live in a gorgeous flat v close to the city centre which is bigger than their new build houses in zone 6 London (it also cost more though). But none of them would ever consider living in a flat beyond a first time buyer type property

My experience is that the attitude in the UK (and particularly England) is quite snobbish about flats and they are not seen as desirable. There is therefore limited demand for bigger family sized flats. And there’s probably no point in developers building big, well designed and attractive flats like the Georgian and Victorian tenements of Scotland because people wouldn’t want to pay for them.

You keep saying UK when purpose built freehold tenement flats have always been popular in Scottish towns and cities, that’s what we built when everyone else was building terraces. I live in a nice small town and there are some across the road from me, stone built Victorian, mind you every time the old person living in them dies they are bought by buy to let landlords so they aren’t extracting to the pool of affordable flats. Don’t get me started on all the lovely flats in Edinburgh that are now Airbnbs…

Are they? Our three double bedrooms, utility room, built in cupboards and walk in washing machine/tumbler room gave us plenty of storage and space to dry washing. I’m living in a house for the first time in my life, I also have the least storage space I have ever had in a home. I’ve never paid a massive service charge either, including ones with a concierge.

Do you live in a flat OP? If not; why not?

X post with @Floradon

Lots of people do live in flats, especially in cities where space is limited.

But ultimately why does it matter if people in the uk prefer terraced houses and private gardens to flats. They arent that space inefficient.

I'd never consider living in a flat unless it was soundproofed, not open plan and had a large balcony or my own private space.

Same.

Like the ones in AMS Scotland Street series, yes they sound lovely

Unfortunately the tiny boxes they build in the Uk are not comparable to a lot of the flats in European towns and cities. Too small, no storage space, no access to a balcony or garden, featureless, troublesome leasehold charges and conditions, fire safety issues.

Sure, but these aren’t mostly affordable.

1. The Gov doesn't prioritise social housing, because it doesn't value 'society' in the sense that some other countries do. They think ahead as far as what will win them the next election, not what will make the country as a whole stronger over the next 20 years.
2. The antiquated freehold/leasehold system in the UK.
3. Land - large swathes of land are still owned by wealthy individuals/families, whereas in some other countries, a city will own all the land, so when they need to build new buildings, they own the land to do so.

And mine. There’s no lovely family houses but endless blocks of flats on every available space. SE