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The autumn budget should cut benefits before increasing tax

1000 replies

Leett · 25/09/2025 05:39

There is talk of Labour breaking their election pledge and increasing income tax by 2p. I doubt they'd do that because voters will revolt. However they need to do something with the state pension due to increase by 4.7% next year.
I really hope they cut benefits / pensions before the deciding to increase taxes.

OP posts:
padso · 25/09/2025 17:28

Tax Tax Tax

@IAmNotASheep what's the alternative when we don't have growth or the money to invest to create growth?

ShanghaiDiva · 25/09/2025 17:28

padso · 25/09/2025 17:13

@IAmNotASheep I'm not sure why you want to keep arguing with me. There wasn't the same yrs of wage stagnation. and house prices vs salaries were quite the same ratio. But you will keep disagreeing.

Because she doesn’t agree with you. The idea that there will be a to and fro between posters who don’t agree is surely to be expected.

IAmNotASheep · 25/09/2025 17:28

ItsNotYou852 · 25/09/2025 17:25

I've always wondered why all the politicians ever do is tinker around the edges.
Are they incapable of coming up with a cohesive and coherent plan or are we incapable of acceting such a change?
And then of course our 5 yearly elections mean no government can ever start a long term plan.

I've begun to despair that anything will really change in my lifetime.
Where are the politicians with enough bottle to go for it?

Tinkering around the edges doesn’t upset too many people.
They all want to at least keep the voters they’ve got.
No one has the balls to thrash out anything ground breaking

Bumblebee72 · 25/09/2025 17:28

Rosscameasdoody · 25/09/2025 17:20

You haven’t answered my second question. At some point you have to think about the people who haven’t contributed through no fault of their own. The system you’re proposing is one of a certain type of means testing and would be cumbersome and expensive to administer. And a two tier system inevitably leads to more poverty. And you’re saying you want that ?

I think some people not contributing due to no fault of their own goes into the life isn't fair bucket. It's not fair I wasn't born into a family estate. I think you need a basic level for everyone then above that you need incentives to contribute more. Every extra person who puts into the pot increases the amount available to help others.

It's not fair but life is never going to be fair, otherwise why do we draw the line at the UK, why not say that even the lowest income people in the UK are still globally near the top so should be sending their money to less developed countries.

Padthaispecial · 25/09/2025 17:29

ruethewhirl · 25/09/2025 16:49

And if your hypothetical cleaner is on the bones of his or her arse?

If that happens as they approach old age they would have acheved plenty of contributory years. Believe it is around 35, so plenty of leeway.

If it happens in middle age they have plenty of time to reestablish themselves.

PropertyD · 25/09/2025 17:29

24karatPalamino · 25/09/2025 17:21

That’s nothing more than a sound bite. ‘Tax the Rich!’.

The rich can avoid tax. The rich can leave.

That’s why ‘tax the rich’ never materialises. Because it’s not ever going to happen.

The very rich will move then we will
lose their spending power. 1% of people pay 30% of income tax. What would some like 50%? All so the benefits gravy train keeps picking up passengers?

IAmNotASheep · 25/09/2025 17:29

ShanghaiDiva · 25/09/2025 17:28

Because she doesn’t agree with you. The idea that there will be a to and fro between posters who don’t agree is surely to be expected.

Dance Celebrate GIF by Holler Studios

job done thanks 🤣
here’s a dancing squirrel by way of thanks

padso · 25/09/2025 17:30

@ShanghaiDiva it's not my opinion that housing prices vs salaries is different now. It's a fact. It's like arguing the earth is flat, it's pointless.

Ccsvs · 25/09/2025 17:30

Hashbrownsandcheese · 25/09/2025 15:26

We are going around in circles. My question was do the taxes you pay cover the services you use.

Probably.

TheClaaaw · 25/09/2025 17:31

Kitte321 · 25/09/2025 17:06

I was just replying to it. Agree on many of the points. The first step is to reform the tax system and address cliff edges to increase productivity.
On pension, how would you communicate to those who have paid in (via NI) that they were not eligible for a state pension (if it was to be tapered).

Thank you.

Yes, the tax system is in a ridiculous state and - unlike many economic issues - entirely within the control of the Government to change instantaneously and research shows that doing so would have an effect within a matter of months, so this should absolutely be the first priority in the budget.

There is very clear evidence from robust independent economic studies (one of which was commissioned by Hunt regarding why UK productivity is so low!) supporting the changes that need to be made (in points 9 and 10 in my earlier post) so there’s absolutely no excuse for the Chancellor not enacting these changes immediately. Not doing so is making everyone in the UK poorer year on year.

Unfortunately a large proportion of the pensioner cohort are extremely entitled. You even see people repeatedly trying to claim that they have “paid for their pension” when they know that this is not how it works, claim it is “not welfare” when it has always been a welfare payment as set out clearly in the NI Act in 1948! And like all welfare payments the qualifying criteria and amount is subject to change and will, of course, always be dependent on what the country can actually afford.

There are some very clear graphs that demonstrate visually why it’s completely unsustainable and will bankrupt the country (not an exaggeration, but a mathematical certainty) if it continues as is. There are also clear ways to represent visually the magnitude of housing costs and childcare costs on working families which dwarf all other household costs, and the net income they have remaining after those costs (which the wealthy pensioners who’d be affected by means testing do not have to pay), and then show this in comparison to the net income of a pensioner with a paid off mortgage and sufficient separate income that they’d be subject to the means testing. I think such graphics would demonstrate unequivocally that they don’t have a leg to stand on.

Politicians are scared of this cohort because there are a lot of them and they shout loudly and try to play the “Four Yorkshireman” game whenever their privilege is pointed out to them, which is why abandoning the triple lock is difficult because then of course you get endless stories about the pensioners who are not wealthy and genuinely are poor. But means testing wouldn’t affect poor pensioners, only the wealthiest ones, so I really don’t see that they’d have a leg to stand on if a politician actually had the courage to stand up and tell them that we’re very sorry but we simply can’t afford to pay out £70-90bn of unnecessary welfare each year, at the expense of the future living standards of your children and grandchildren.

These wealthy pensioners tend to be the same people also who constantly disparage the young calling them lazy (when employment participation is higher now than it’s been since the 1970s) and are all in favour of impoverishing some of the poorest working aged people and disabled through further benefit cuts to save a measly £5bn per year, so I’d be interested to see their reaction if the scale of the £70-90bn spent on unnecessary pensioner welfare was actually called out very publicly and they were asked to justify why this should continue.

Their only argument seems to be “well I paid tax!”. Firstly, many of them did not. Secondly, those that did, paid nowhere near enough to fund this. And thirdly, everyone now is paying far more tax as a proportion of wages yet mysteriously they’re always in favour of changing entitlements for future generations (e.g. raising pension age further in future) but never any reform that would affect their own cohort, of course. They seem quite content with working-aged people paying taxes now despite knowing that the system can’t continue as it is and we won’t get a state pension like they are receiving so their argument that “we paid tax” entitles them to large welfare payments they don’t require for 20+ years falls flat.

Fundamentally, I think they need calling out and people have pandered to them for far too long. And when the scale of the savings that would be achieved by means-testing pensions without creating any pensioner poverty whatsoever were made clear in visual graphics - and what could be achieved instead with this money - I think the rest of the population would absolutely get behind the policy. It has to be changed and we need a political leader who will stand up for what needs to be done and has a backbone. Australia originally had a system much like ours but had the foresight to change it decades ago. Our pensioners knew for decades about the demographic time bomb that their large cohort would cause for their children and grandchildren to fund and chose to do nothing about this to make the system sustainable, instead voting for lower taxes for themselves. Now the piper has to be paid and they need to be told this.

I do think, however, that the pension credit system needs amending and that the means-tested state pension for those who do require it should be substantially higher than the pension credit amount. Again, by means-testing it this could easily be funded while also funded the other spending priorities I mentioned. In addition, making auto-enrolment mandatory and raising contribution levels (with offsetting tax cuts) plus implementing a similar scheme for the self-employed will significantly reduce the numbers on pension credit in the future.

IAmNotASheep · 25/09/2025 17:31

PropertyD · 25/09/2025 17:29

The very rich will move then we will
lose their spending power. 1% of people pay 30% of income tax. What would some like 50%? All so the benefits gravy train keeps picking up passengers?

Yep
Guernsey has 0% inheritance tax and most are paying for private health care already so why not
Plus income tax is 20% for everyone. Yay

Padthaispecial · 25/09/2025 17:33

Bumblebee72 · 25/09/2025 17:14

Yes I would have a two tier system. There needs to be rewards for contribution.,

Absolutely. The poor get looked after (as long as they have worked in some capacity). The only people losing out are the feckless.

You can't reward the lazy. Society is already collapsing.

IAmNotASheep · 25/09/2025 17:34

Padthaispecial · 25/09/2025 17:29

If that happens as they approach old age they would have acheved plenty of contributory years. Believe it is around 35, so plenty of leeway.

If it happens in middle age they have plenty of time to reestablish themselves.

40 years now I believe

Downtrod · 25/09/2025 17:34

Try living on sp you have the same bills to pay still have to pay the same prices for food, but get less than the minimum wage.

padso · 25/09/2025 17:35

@TheClaaaw Another great post. What does confuse me is why so many want to deny that housing is more expensive now etc. You're right, they just want to deflect. As a mother and hopefully a future grandmother I just can't fathom it.

IAmNotASheep · 25/09/2025 17:36

Downtrod · 25/09/2025 17:34

Try living on sp you have the same bills to pay still have to pay the same prices for food, but get less than the minimum wage.

This
Until the pension gets in-line the triple lock needs to stay. That’s why it was introduced in the first place

FLOWER19833 · 25/09/2025 17:38

Bumblebee72 · 25/09/2025 07:56

Of course they need to cut benefits. They also need to crack down on tax evasion. It isn't either or. But instead they will take the easy route and charge the increasingly small pool who do honest work for a living.

Especially the people who get paid cash in hand claiming the only work 20 hours and getting universal credit top up.

ItsNotYou852 · 25/09/2025 17:41

padso · 25/09/2025 17:27

Where are the politicians with enough bottle to go for it?

But voters won't vote for them

Really? You don't think there's enough people who want real change?
What about all the people claiming they are going to vote Refoem, "cos at least it will be a change"?

padso · 25/09/2025 17:42

@ItsNotYou852 there aren't enough voters that want to hear the truth. Reform is popular because they are saying unicorns are real.

TheClaaaw · 25/09/2025 17:42

ItsNotYou852 · 25/09/2025 17:25

I've always wondered why all the politicians ever do is tinker around the edges.
Are they incapable of coming up with a cohesive and coherent plan or are we incapable of acceting such a change?
And then of course our 5 yearly elections mean no government can ever start a long term plan.

I've begun to despair that anything will really change in my lifetime.
Where are the politicians with enough bottle to go for it?

Exactly. I think our electoral system is party to blame for this. We swing from one extreme to the other so it encourages short-term goals and the really important things - which inevitably are the long term ones! - get ignored because they won’t bear fruit by the next election. And then the other party undoes what the previous one has done. A system with proportional representation tends to lead to more cross-party working out of necessity and therefore you tend to get a shared basic vision about how the most fundamental public institutions and systems should operate that does factor in long-term consequences (because the parties know that they may well be the ones dealing with those as well!). Whereas here politicians calculate that by the time the chickens come home to roost they’ll be long gone and enjoying their pension and the lucrative roles that they’ve gained from their public profile in politics.

There’s also a huge issue of the way Government finances are managed with spending budgets allocated to each Department, again with short-term horizons, and this encourages short-term attempts to “save costs” despite it being obvious that the measures taken will simply impose even higher costs later on, or higher costs on other Government Departments. But those making the decisions are only responsible for and measured on their own budget in the current period so don’t care about this. Again, perverse incentives. When a policy change is proposed a full economic analysis of the long-term effects across all Government departments, including the impact on economic growth, should be required to be published. That would be a good first step towards some accountability and discouraging actions which will be clearly negative in outcome as a whole.

Basically a lot of incompetent, short-term siloed thinking and self-interested behaviour and the political system needs reforming to ensure that the incentives are aligned with politicians acting in the public interest.

GeneralPeter · 25/09/2025 17:44

EatMoreChocolate44 · 25/09/2025 07:17

We will all hopefully be pensioners one day. Some pensioners can't afford to heat their houses over winter. We will reap what we sow.

The issue is precisely that pensioners are reaping far more than they sowed, so when the current generation retire they will be forced to reap much less than they sowed. There’s no moral reason why this generation of retirees should be preferred to others to such a significant degree.

And it’s not possible for this generation of workers to just do the same down the chain, becuase government borrowing rates put an effective ceiling on that. One generation is helping itself to permanently more, leaving the following ones to permanently less.

padso · 25/09/2025 17:46

The issue is precisely that pensioners are reaping far more than they sowed, so when the current generation retire they will be forced to reap much less than they sowed.

this

Waitfortheguinness · 25/09/2025 17:47

Rosscameasdoody · 25/09/2025 14:08

In over thirty years working in general and disability benefits I never came across anyone who could afford all that just on benefits - do you have actual evidence or are you just repeating what online sheeple are saying ? You realise that not everyone who claims UC is unemployed. Why shouldn’t people who are claiming top ups for working have these things if they can afford to save for them. In fact I’ll go further. Anyone who genuinely can’t work through illness or disability should be able to save from their benefits for a few luxuries. We all pay in, in the hope that we never need to take out, but looking after the sick and otherwise vulnerable is the mark of decent society. Not much evidence of it on here if comments like this are anything to go by.

The statement I responded to simply claimed that ALL people on benefits should be provided with a comfortable life. Of course anyone genuinely unable to work should be allowed this, but those who are fully able to work full time but chose not to should not expect the general taxpayer (some on low incomes themselves) to fund this lifestyle.
and as for the “sheeple” comment maybe look at some of the disgusting remarks towards pensioners on this and similar threads - obviously just gleaned info from AI and similar internet sites that fit their perceived rhetoric that pensioners are swanning around on cruises, sitting in multimillion pound houses, counting their thousands whilst laughing at the struggling younger generations.

TigerRag · 25/09/2025 17:48

Downtrod · 25/09/2025 17:34

Try living on sp you have the same bills to pay still have to pay the same prices for food, but get less than the minimum wage.

Try living on sickness benefits which are less. And regardless of my income, I have to pay 20% council tax which currently I wouldn't pay once I retire and go on t SP

TheClaaaw · 25/09/2025 17:49

padso · 25/09/2025 17:35

@TheClaaaw Another great post. What does confuse me is why so many want to deny that housing is more expensive now etc. You're right, they just want to deflect. As a mother and hopefully a future grandmother I just can't fathom it.

Don’t forget MIRAS as well! They always keep quiet about that one… young people now would chew off their own arm to have their mortgage interest tax deductible. Can you imagine? That’s mysteriously never mentioned when they bang on about the temporary period of a few weeks when interest rates rocketed. And they refuse to accept that current house prices at 10 times earnings multiplied by current interest rates equates to a higher proportion of average salary anyway than earlier house prices at 3 times earnings multiplied by higher (temporary!) interest rates.

It’s not all of them of course, as I said previously, but there is certainly a significant proportion of that generation who have these attitudes and want to deny evidenced factual reality. I can’t imagine they are incapable of understanding basic maths so it does seem deliberate hence my belief that given there is no other way to fix the economy (with now nearly 40% of public spending going on over 65s between healthcare, housing, care and welfare etc) somebody does need to stand up to them and say yes of course we’ll support those pensioners who need support, but no, paying the taxes you were legally required to pay (which were far lower than taxes now!) doesn’t entitle you to welfare you do not need when you’re perfectly capable of supporting yourselves. It’s not affordable and it’s impoverishing your children and grandchildren. Surely that’s not what you want? Sorry, but it can’t be done. The country simply can’t afford it.

I really can’t see what rational argument they could make against this.

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