Charlie Kirks wife forgives the killer

[strangerandstranger]

To people who said her husband was hateful and what they preached was hateful, she just forgave the killer, as God would. Powerful speech.

The messed up young man who thought shooting man he didn't like was the answer, will go to prison and no longer be with his boyfriend. Erika Kirk no longer has her husband and her children have list their father.

@BerylSnow I wouldn’t describe myself as a conservative. I’m not aware of Kirk being hugely controversial with USA conservatives (as most understand views centred on religious texts) but obviously he was with nutjobs and anti semites such as Fuentes.

I listen to everything from Novara Media to Megyn Kelly, Brendan O’Neill and even Jordan Peterson occasionally. It’s hard sometimes but it does help to understand and respect people having different opinions.

I agree that we must listen to all as how can we possibly have any sort reasonable discourse (at whatever level) if we refuse to listen to opposing views.

I draw the line at Megyn Kelly, though. She spews bile and offers nothing but spite. She's a click and rage bait merchant. Peterson, I disagree with mostly, but agree on a few things. Don't know Brendan O'Neill. Will look him up.

@BerylSnow Agree on Megyn Kelly - I get embarrassed when she goes off on one and she often accuses the left of what she herself is guilty of. I love Jordan Peterson on the psychology and the Bible (I’m an atheist) but can’t bear him on culture war issues. My favourite is Brendan O’Neill as he really lets people speak and is well prepared. Also enjoy an awful lot of Novara. Love being able to pick and choose from such a wealth of options!

@AzurePanda what do you make of Sam Harris?

@BerylSnow I love his voice! I actually like him, always find him interesting and generally learn something new.

I think paradoxically, how controversial someone is, can often be because their moderate stance allows a critical message to gain popularity. JK Rowling is very far away from the most extreme critic of gender ideology, but she was hated far more than others because she could influence ordinary people. I think Kirk is somewhat less moderate than JKR but he was still far from the most far right or extremists influencer out there. But the extremists don't gain anywhere near as much support from average members of the public, so the left are less concerned (obsessed) with them.

@Underthinker 100% agree with you.

If you're on the right, then I imagine Kirk's views were not too extreme. But, for those of us on the left, he did have extreme views. So, it's all relative.

But, not to overplay his popularity/notoriety in the UK, though. I'd say before last week, about 5% of people (tops) would have known who he was.

Are you in the US? Were the left obsessed with Kirk? In what way? Do the right get obsessed with left wing commentators? Or does it only work one way over there?

You realise that prisons are expensive and that it is cheaper to tackle the root causes of crime, such that fewer kids end up in the criminal justice system in the first place?

Not only that, prisons don't actually work. Except for obviously removing the person from society for a finite period of time.

Rehabilitation and going to the root causes is the only way to improve crime rates. But that's not a vote winner for the baying mob.

I would say I was on the left. (Unequivocally until a couple of years ago, now with a list of "buts").

That's interesting. Are you left in the US, or left in Britain? They are quite different!

Edit to say that if you're on the left, and don't find Kirk's views extreme, I'd say you are US based.

I am left in the UK. Labour & Remain voter, supported Corbyn and McDonnell (less so now). Read the guardian for decades (but got a lifetime ban from commenting on the guardian online so don't bother reading it anymore).

https://www.standrewslawreview.com/post/prison-privatisation-a-failure-of-the-british-penal-system

In addition, if you address the root causes of crime, it interferes with private enterprise. Like most industries built on social issues, it needs a constant supply of offenders to keep the money flowing.

It boggles the mind that such a fundamental issue is part of the capitalist machine, rather than for the good or protection of society.

Wow, definitely did not pick that. In that context, and in the nicest, non antagonistic way, you come across as a reformed smoker, including the way you were charging at Plastic Trees!

Corbyn was too much for me. The realist side of me couldn't take his idealism. But would never vote right.

Except for obviously removing the person from society for a finite period of time.

@BerylSnow which in the case of recidivists and those beyond reform is of course a worthwhile aim in itself. When someone who has been burgling for years finally gets sent away, it gives the community some peace.

The way that it's used in the US though is counter-productive. But when private companies are making a profit out of government funding, and selling slave labour to plantations then they're going to lobby to maintain the status quo. The Thirteenth Amendment has a handy little loophole that meant that heavy punishments for trivial matters could be used to continue enslaving black people even after the abolition of slavery.

I'm not sure I charged at PlasticTrees, maybe I did. There's a nearly full thread called "Charlie Kirk's beliefs", a decent chunk of which is Plastic Trees & a couple of others, demanding I watch & defend this or that video of Kirk, ignoring the fact that I already have, calling me racist, and generally insulting my ability to make an argument. I'm not right wing, I am quite stubborn though.

@Underthinker I guess I'm struggling to compute how any liberal would be defending Kirk's views.

Though, I'm also struggling to understand where you now stand politically having previously sat on the left, and not the centrist kind of left (not that you need to explain yourself to me). Maybe you've gone full circle and come out the other side! 😁

I wish you well.

This really sounds like ‘real communism has never been tried’.

For one, I don’t believe that poverty and crime are highly linked. Some impoverished groups in America do not commit a large portion of crime.

So what does that leave you with? Changing the culture?

I wish you and other optimists good luck with that, I would like it to work but as I said, I shouldn’t have to wait 20 years for it to work (or not) when we can just incarcerate criminals today as well as tackle whatever root causes you think will actually change things. I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask us to wait a generation or two for something that may or may not work

I don’t think it is hard wired. Bill Clinton was harsh on crime (three strikes was popularly attributed to him) and by the late 90s, people started to move into cities again.

I think they’ve been captured by elements that are softer on crime. I hope they find their way out of it. I would vote for someone like 1990s Bill Clinton.

@RingoJuice Can I ask you one question on this, and then I'll leave you to it.

You say this: 'I don’t believe that poverty and crime are highly linked'.

What is this based on? A hunch? Feelings? Because it's not based on evidence (as we have already gone over!). I'm really curious to know what your opinion is based on.

Ok. You'll know more than me. I don't really have a clue about crime in America except logic tells me that pretty much everyone is against crime. Just with different views on how to resolve it.

Yes liberal, so respect others' right to have whatever religion, beliefs or views they want.

I have no problem with Kirk's views being criticised, but I objected to the quotes that were taken very out of context, a few that were outright false, and the small minority of people who openly celebrated.

The racist/misogynistic context of his quotes has been repeatedly explained, but people persist in sealioning for more.