Page 6 | Irresponsible and unhelpful article about baby’s death?

NET145 · 2025-09-21T05:12:15+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c864g0evz9jo.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c864g0evz9jo.amp]] I am genuinely very confused about this article and would appreciate if someone could shed light so we can learn from it. It says that the mother “had failed to notice her daughter's deterioration” and this presumably led to the baby’s tragic death. But I have no idea what the signs of deterioration would have been? As a new mum maybe it is not as obvious to me as it might be for others. There seems to be great emphasis on the alcohol and tobacco consumption, but nothing to say that this directly impacted - e.g. baby someone fallen on or got hold of cigarettes so it’s unclear why this is actually relevant? Clearly it is not a crime have booze and fags, so what exactly has happened here? It seems like there is some fairly crucial information missing? AIBU to think this type of article is alarming enough to raise anxiety levels but too vague to actually help inform or equip parents and careers. And also stigmatises a mother who, other than drink and smoke, does not explicitly seem to have done something harmful. If she has missed some critical signs of declining health then we really need to know what they were!

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 13:59

PartingGift · 21/09/2025 13:51

And also stigmatises a mother who, other than drink and smoke, does not explicitly seem to have done something harmful.

…you don’t think getting absolutely smashed out of your face, leave you baby alone on a sofa for 14 hours, is harmful?

She was convicted of child cruelty, not of actually causing the poor baby’s death. There were probably quite obvious signs that the children were not being cared for. The poor baby had rigor mortis so had been dead for a while before she even noticed. I imagine the poor soul also had bad nappy rash if she was being left alone for that long. Why was she even on the sofa? Did she not have a moses basket or cot? Leaving a baby on the sofa alone is dangerous as it is not a firm, flat, waterproof surface, and is not clear. Most sofas have a slight incline, which babies can roll into and then struggle to roll themselves back, so can suffocate. Falling asleep on the sofa with your baby raises the risk of SIDS by 50 times more than co sleeping in a bed.

The lullaby trust has some good advice about safe sleep:

Safer sleep for babies: the basics
Following this advice for every sleep, day and night, reduces the risk of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS, previously known as cot death). Our safer sleep advice has saved the lives of over 30,000 babies since 1991.
The safest place for a baby to sleep is in their own clear, flat, firm separate sleep space (e.g. a cot or Moses basket) in the same room as you.

Lie your baby on their back.
Keep their cot clear.
Use a firm, flat, waterproof mattress.
Keep baby smoke-free.
Avoid your baby getting too hot.
Sleep your baby in the same room as you for at least the first six months.

https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/baby-safety/safer-sleep-information/safer-sleep-overview/

Doesn’t sound as if any of those six bits of advice were implemented by the mother in this case, potentially the baby may have suddenly died regardless, but seems likely that a combination of the risk factors contributed to her dying from SIDS.

Yes, but while allowing your child to sleep on the couch is highly frowned upon it is not illegal. So the criminality here speaks of the broader neglect - which if you were only to read the article seems to be the crime of being the kind of neglectful that barely raises an eyebrow of social services.

mtaylorfan · 21/09/2025 14:01

This is such a sad case - a beautiful child died. I hope that the mother is repairing her life and being the best mother she can to her other child.

Besides the advice on sleeping in the same room for six months, and being in a fit state to care for a small baby - the general advice is that we shouldn't be having more than 2-3 units a day, no more than 14 a week, and that more than 6 units in a short session is a binge.

Britain is known for having really high rates of binge drinking among women. The alcohol industry has done a lot over the past 30 years to normalise daily drinking among women as something we deserve, that we need to do to relax or be sociable. It's so dangerous.

I wonder whether this case has touched a nerve because having a few birthday drinks at home with a young baby is normal. And it's probably the default option unless you follow a particular religion seriously, or are in athletic training.

Life is stressful, and lonely, and other treats often seem so expensive or hard work.

It's hard for us to make better choices on our own. And really quite easy for people to slide into drinking well over recommended limits while thinking that they're doing fine.

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 14:06

mtaylorfan · 21/09/2025 14:01

This is such a sad case - a beautiful child died. I hope that the mother is repairing her life and being the best mother she can to her other child.

Besides the advice on sleeping in the same room for six months, and being in a fit state to care for a small baby - the general advice is that we shouldn't be having more than 2-3 units a day, no more than 14 a week, and that more than 6 units in a short session is a binge.

Britain is known for having really high rates of binge drinking among women. The alcohol industry has done a lot over the past 30 years to normalise daily drinking among women as something we deserve, that we need to do to relax or be sociable. It's so dangerous.

I wonder whether this case has touched a nerve because having a few birthday drinks at home with a young baby is normal. And it's probably the default option unless you follow a particular religion seriously, or are in athletic training.

Life is stressful, and lonely, and other treats often seem so expensive or hard work.

It's hard for us to make better choices on our own. And really quite easy for people to slide into drinking well over recommended limits while thinking that they're doing fine.

Yes, I think that some defensiveness may be about that. I barely drink, even at Christmas and never drank at all when the kids were little, so that's not informing my opinion.

But I do think it that it's important to see the argument for criminality here in this case - with the laws as they exist at the moment.

And I think there's another wider argument to be had about whether we should lower the bar of what we consider criminally neglectful parenting.

DancingNotDrowning · 21/09/2025 14:45

x2boys · 21/09/2025 10:50

The baby may have died anyway however,none of these things helped.
Leaving a 5 month old baby asleep on the sofa
Not checking on them properly for many hours
Drinking to excess
Going out frequently for a cigarette
The minimising on here is ridiculous.

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I don’t think people are minimising. I think they are questioning what constitutes neglect, because in the absence of knowing why the baby died and whether earlier intervention would have helped (I.e. baby was sick rather than died suddenly) than there’s a strong focus on the fact that the baby was put to sleep on a sofa and as others have commented that is not a criminal offence in these circumstances (co-sleeping with a baby when under influence is).

so where is the bar?

Various govt advice is baby in a cot, breastfed, no solids until 6mth, vaccinate, etc is the argument that not following guidance is neglect? Or only in conjunction with drinking?

It’s a tragic case.

DeedlessIndeed · 21/09/2025 14:52

If you genuinely are an anxious mum OP, then follow safe sleep guidelines.

Do not leave a 5 month old (!!!) on a sofa to sleep. Definitely not unattended.
Don't be so incapacitated that you cannot check your child when you go up to bed.
Don't get so drunk that you don't check your child when you wake up in the morning.
And don't be so hung over that you leave it until the baby has starts to develop rigor mortis before contacting help.

It is really, really despicable behaviour from this mother. There can be no excuse. You do not leave a 5 month old unattended without a sober, responsible guardian. Full stop.

mtaylorfan · 21/09/2025 15:21

@Upstartled I don't work in the field, and perhaps you do. I guess that a lot depends on the specific case and the effects of the behaviour in question - even if it were within recommended limits, or would be fine in another context or at another time.

We can find the College of Policing 'Authorised Professional Practice' definition of child cruelty here.

Which points us to the legislation: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/23-24/12/section/1

I gather the threshold is pretty high for the CPS to take a case forward. There may have been additional factors that haven't been reported, and other indicators of neglect.

Children and Young Persons Act 1933

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to persons under the age of eighteen years.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/23-24/12/section/1

Crunchymum · 21/09/2025 15:32

I think the OP is getting a slightly unfair pasting here.

I don't think she is trying to excuse what the mother did. I do feel there is information missing from the BBC article. Was the child left on a sofa? Not checked on at all after her last bottle?

I understand we have no right to be privvy to this information but let's face it how many parents do this (to a lesser degree) every weekend? Kids in bed, let have a few drinks?

(I'm teetotal before anyone wonders)

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 15:39

mtaylorfan · 21/09/2025 15:21

@Upstartled I don't work in the field, and perhaps you do. I guess that a lot depends on the specific case and the effects of the behaviour in question - even if it were within recommended limits, or would be fine in another context or at another time.

We can find the College of Policing 'Authorised Professional Practice' definition of child cruelty here.

Which points us to the legislation: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/23-24/12/section/1

I gather the threshold is pretty high for the CPS to take a case forward. There may have been additional factors that haven't been reported, and other indicators of neglect.

No, I don't work in the field but there is enough common knowledges around this to state that the threshold for ss engagement is staggeringly high and that allowing your infant to sleep on the couch is legal, despite being highly discouraged for its risky outcomes.

I agree, it's likely that there is far more to it than the information in the article suggests. I'm just pushing back on the idea that it is plainly obvious why the defendant met the threshold of criminality and that the op is being tactically naive or defensive because of her own behaviour.

x2boys · 21/09/2025 15:42

Crunchymum · 21/09/2025 15:32

I think the OP is getting a slightly unfair pasting here.

I don't think she is trying to excuse what the mother did. I do feel there is information missing from the BBC article. Was the child left on a sofa? Not checked on at all after her last bottle?

I understand we have no right to be privvy to this information but let's face it how many parents do this (to a lesser degree) every weekend? Kids in bed, let have a few drinks?

(I'm teetotal before anyone wonders)

Edited

There's a huge difference in having a few drinks when the the kids are in bed
To leaving a 5 month old baby in an unsafe sleeping place and then only checking on them briefly from the doorway and not feeding them for 14 hours whilst you drink vodka .

ToKittyornottoKitty · 21/09/2025 15:44

Crunchymum · 21/09/2025 15:32

I think the OP is getting a slightly unfair pasting here.

I don't think she is trying to excuse what the mother did. I do feel there is information missing from the BBC article. Was the child left on a sofa? Not checked on at all after her last bottle?

I understand we have no right to be privvy to this information but let's face it how many parents do this (to a lesser degree) every weekend? Kids in bed, let have a few drinks?

(I'm teetotal before anyone wonders)

Edited

It states in the article that the baby was left on the sofa after the last bottle and not checked on (other than peering through the door from afar). OP says the article is unfair and irresponsible which just isn’t the case. It’s a case of child neglect but OP thinks stigmatising the mum is unfair… but she neglected her child and the child died alone.

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 15:45

x2boys · 21/09/2025 15:42

There's a huge difference in having a few drinks when the the kids are in bed
To leaving a 5 month old baby in an unsafe sleeping place and then only checking on them briefly from the doorway and not feeding them for 14 hours whilst you drink vodka .

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Yes, there's a huge moral difference. Is there a huge legal difference?

Crunchymum · 21/09/2025 15:46

x2boys · 21/09/2025 15:42

There's a huge difference in having a few drinks when the the kids are in bed
To leaving a 5 month old baby in an unsafe sleeping place and then only checking on them briefly from the doorway and not feeding them for 14 hours whilst you drink vodka .

Show quote history

Totally.

To me the article insinuates this without actually confirming.

Although I am sure the conviction tells me all I need to know and the "mother" was so blind drunk she essentially forgot about her defenceless 5mo baby.

Soontobe60 · 21/09/2025 15:46

NET145 · 21/09/2025 06:46

Wow, I’m sorry if wanting to learn about important signs and critical illness to prevent baby death as a new parent seems excessive to you

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A good starting point would be to not get pissed whilst in charge of your baby. Does that help?

Crunchymum · 21/09/2025 15:47

ToKittyornottoKitty · 21/09/2025 15:44

It states in the article that the baby was left on the sofa after the last bottle and not checked on (other than peering through the door from afar). OP says the article is unfair and irresponsible which just isn’t the case. It’s a case of child neglect but OP thinks stigmatising the mum is unfair… but she neglected her child and the child died alone.

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Fair enough. I only skim read the article so my fault for not seeing that the child was indeed left on a sofa and not checked on at all.

x2boys · 21/09/2025 15:47

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 15:45

Yes, there's a huge moral difference. Is there a huge legal difference?

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Well she's been found guilty so...

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 16:00

x2boys · 21/09/2025 15:47

Well she's been found guilty so...

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Yes, she was...but would she be facing charges of criminality if the baby hadn't died? If say, a social worker walked in and found the baby well but sleeping on the couch in the morning and the mother declared she had spent the night drinking, but the baby was in her line of sight...would there be charges made against her?

I'm agreeing, it's immoral and neglectful but the outcome of the baby's death is irrelevant to the mother's crime...which cannot be leaving the baby on the couch, or not checking the sleeping baby as these aren't crimes, it could only be drinking while in charge of a baby...and perhaps, if that's the case, we'd need to be more clear about what that limit is, as we do with driving. And be more consistent in how we prosecute it, even when it doesn't result in the harm of the baby.

Although, as I've stated, I think this is probably more lackluster reporting more than anything else.

rainbowunicorn · 21/09/2025 16:27

NET145 · 21/09/2025 06:51

I’ve never done it? Not sure why that is your assumption here! I am just trying to learn from what is a tragic event which has been reported presumably for the public to learn from, but which I think fails to provide some pretty crucial details… how on earth am I being painted the bad guy! Mental

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The only learning needed from this is dont get so fucked up on booze that you dont bother checking your baby properly. It dosen't matter what the cause of death was. The facts are if the mother hadn't necked a bottle of vodka she would have been in a fit state to properly care for the child. It is neglect due to being to intoxicated to check the baby. Nobody should be drunk in sole charge of children that's really all there is to it.

Newname42 · 21/09/2025 16:29

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 16:00

Yes, she was...but would she be facing charges of criminality if the baby hadn't died? If say, a social worker walked in and found the baby well but sleeping on the couch in the morning and the mother declared she had spent the night drinking, but the baby was in her line of sight...would there be charges made against her?

I'm agreeing, it's immoral and neglectful but the outcome of the baby's death is irrelevant to the mother's crime...which cannot be leaving the baby on the couch, or not checking the sleeping baby as these aren't crimes, it could only be drinking while in charge of a baby...and perhaps, if that's the case, we'd need to be more clear about what that limit is, as we do with driving. And be more consistent in how we prosecute it, even when it doesn't result in the harm of the baby.

Although, as I've stated, I think this is probably more lackluster reporting more than anything else.

Edited

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There would still have been consequences, just not as severe ones, probably a SS referral. Similar to drunk driving, you might lose your licence if drunk driving and not having an accident, but face jail time if an accident happens.

BunnyRuddington · 21/09/2025 16:32

I think they probably went with neglect as it was in her own home and the penalty for being drunk in charge of a child only carries a maximum sentence of one month.

CharlieKirkRIP · 21/09/2025 16:37

The baby was under the care of the mother. The mother got pissed rather than be responsible for her baby’s welfare. That is all you need to know.

x2boys · 21/09/2025 16:49

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 16:00

Yes, she was...but would she be facing charges of criminality if the baby hadn't died? If say, a social worker walked in and found the baby well but sleeping on the couch in the morning and the mother declared she had spent the night drinking, but the baby was in her line of sight...would there be charges made against her?

I'm agreeing, it's immoral and neglectful but the outcome of the baby's death is irrelevant to the mother's crime...which cannot be leaving the baby on the couch, or not checking the sleeping baby as these aren't crimes, it could only be drinking while in charge of a baby...and perhaps, if that's the case, we'd need to be more clear about what that limit is, as we do with driving. And be more consistent in how we prosecute it, even when it doesn't result in the harm of the baby.

Although, as I've stated, I think this is probably more lackluster reporting more than anything else.

Edited

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Well nobody would have known about it if the baby hadent sadly died you can try and twist it as much as you want but he fact is her baby died whilst she was drunk
Five month old babies are moving about that's why they shouldn't be left sleeping on a sofa as it's unsafe. they also need checking on regularly
Maybe this was the first time the mother had left her baby like this or maybe not ,and in previous times the baby survived who knows.

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 16:54

It's rude to say I'm twisting anything. Being left on the couch is unsafe. If we want to make it illegal we should legislate for it. If it's not illegal, how can it be packaged within the charge of neglect?

Upstartled · 21/09/2025 17:04

Anyway, I don't think the op is a bad actor for wondering what has happened and I know I'm not for expecting there to be more to the report.

SusiQ18472638 · 21/09/2025 17:04

This is not a case of subtle deterioration of a baby that a good parent might miss. Just because they are not explicit with the cause of death, I think it’s quite obvious that the mum’s neglect is why the deterioration wasn’t noticed. I would assume it’s something to do with being left unsafely on a sofa for hours.

Calamitousness · 21/09/2025 17:10

@NET145 it is not your right to know why this baby died. It has not been revealed. If I was a guessing person as you appear to be then I would have to guess serious neglect causing death. If you do not feed or care for your baby for a prolonged period of time they will die. This is not a one off moment for a good mother I am willing to bet. She was 2.5times over drink drive limit when tested. That is unlikely to have been her peak.