AIBU to think a big reason to birth rate is falling is because mothers are made to feel they must do more for their children than in previous times?

[TheJoyOfWriting]

Now there's a lot more focus on mothers needing to do a lot, the whole 'concerted cultivation' thing where kids have a lot of activities that need help and travel time etc, pressure to get into top schools & unis arguably more than there was in the past, and for support & extra activities from an early age to enable this.

Wheras say, children in the 60s and 70s or before had a lot more independent play time and time outside without adult supervision
The gentle parenting thing ties in to this too, whereas before parents generally did not use such high-intensity strategies.

Working mums are made tp feel guilty often of they can't make the school run. But in previous times children often walked alone or with friends at pre-seckndary school age..my gran was walking to school at 6, tho admittedly this wad as an evacuee in the country
I think it's good we're more safety conscious now but also think that it's gone a bit too far in some ways and put too much pressure mainly on mothers.

otoh there's obvs areas where children are unsafe, and this must be addressed.
Maybe also an effect of the climate crisis will be to have less driving, so this would also make streets safer.

There's a lot of talk that mothers spend less time w kids now and this is why there is too much screen time. But I think that's wrong.
Studies show mothers, including both working and SAHM, spend more time with children than most SAHMs in the 1960s did

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/11/27/parents-now-spend-twice-as-much-time-with-their-children-as-50-years-ago&ved=2ahUKEwjuxsiS-dWPAxW3YEEAHXHsO044ChAWegQINhAB&usg=AOvVaw0RS-idWHNILw0SaKskdwRI

I don't think online stuff is bc mothers aren't spending time. I think it's bc there's a perception of less safety so kids are kept inside more than previously and are allowed screen access, so that takes place instead.

I'm saying this as a Gen Z who's really happy that my single mother (we lived w my gran tho who helped a lot) helped w my music & other hobbies. I don't think this is necessarily bad at all, I just think there needs to be more balance.

So what do people think? Is the expectation for children to be much more supervised now making women feel that children require much more effort than they actually do, and therefore affecting the birth rate?

Cost of childcare
Climate apocalypse

Better sex education has contributed to lower birth rates. There is a lot of effort made by schools to make sure young people know the facts about getting pregnant, contraception and safe sex. Less accidental pregnancies as a result.

The contraceptive pill was available from the 60's onwards and there were other methods of contraception available which meant women in those days could and did choose if/when to have a baby...

The declining birth rate is partly due to women wanting a different life for themselves - not just as a wife and mother. Many more women are choosing to be independent of these commitments.

Would you like me to show you the thread on the step parent board where a chef was berated for not being home in time to cook dinner for his 14 year old daughter?

The birth rate drops in every country when women are educated.

You children will be competing globally in a capitalistic system; I think many parents worry that there children need to be on an even playing field with others competing for good jobs. In addition to this AI will change what jobs are profitable. Climate change may mean people competing for limited resources.

Women work but also take on the greater share of household responsibilities in the home and with children when they have them - some women now opt out as they think this is a poor deal.

I think people parent differently because the world looks different now.

I think many people in previous generations didn’t necessarily want children but they got married and had children because that was just what you did, there was immense societal pressure. Nowadays women can take care of themselves and don’t need to be with a man to have a roof over their heads, so they can make different choices to those our mothers and grandmothers made.

It’s a bit chicken and egg, but as soon as women entered the workforce en masse, it meant that families with two working parents could afford to pay more for houses. The coupled with other demographic changes (living longer, more divorces, more she single households) and house building lagging demand pushed up the price of houses.

At that point, the stay-at-home parent model becomes difficult / unviable unless one partner is extremely well paid. For normal people, families and children become an expensive luxury or major financial sacrifice.

I would also add having children is an immense emotional sacrifice as well, (of course with its rewards), and many people are too self-centred to bother with it.

yes its much less self centered to have a child and then decide parenting isnt for you 🙄

FWIW I think the expectation is gone, back in my mothers generation it was expected you got married and had lots of kids (that you didn’t want or care about) whereas now people are seeing the damage from boomer parenting and either breaking those cycles by not having any or having fewer they actually want.

Appreciate this is a massive generalisation but it’s my personal opinion from the life I’ve lived.

Lots of good responses.

Mainly I think the cost of housing and childcare is a big problem.

But the changing attitudes can be detrimental to having kids.

Every child should have its own bedroom is often quoted on here for example. In years gone by, families with 3, 4 or 5 children often still lived in 3 bed homes. Sharing and bunk beds were common. 6 bedroom houses to accommodate a bedroom for everyone are expensive.

In years gone by, SAHMs were fairly usual, which probably contributed to more kids, it was easier to manage if mum was home anyway. Not saying it was right or wrong. But now the attitude is that women should work, should be financially independent, should have a good pension in their own right. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it is less likely to be achievable with a larger number of children.

Car seats. Years gone by, 3 kids fitted in the back seat with no seats. Now if you need a car seat per child, you need bigger cars.

There are so many changes to modern life that means having kids is more faff than it used to be.

Name calling usually means you have lost your side of the debate. And is hardly a good advert for motherhood If this is what it turns you into then im even more glad i gave it a swerve. Many people not meaning everyone? = semantics

For an actual answer though…
Better sex education, and education for women in general.
Free and easily access to contraception.
Free and safe access to abortion.
Culminating with a diminished expectation that women MUST couple up and breed.
Women have choices.

I just think it's economic. Women need to earn a bigger salary than the previous part-time secondary job. It's tough to do everything and then a FT stressful job on top.

I think it's for many reasons but finally we're raising a generation of women who aren't being moulded in to subservient wives and mothers. And finally woman are realising there's a whole life ahead of them that doesn't involve settling down and having kids.
On top of that there's an increasing pessimism about an uncertain and unstable future. Climate change, extreme politics.... the world doesn't seem like the safe, welcoming place it used to be.
I'm not sure I'd choose to bring a child in to it if I had my time again.

My grandmother had 5 kids and was pretty self centred and my father does not rave about his 60s childhood at all. Even though they had money it was pretty emotionally neglectful. DHs grandmother had 3 and had terrible mental health issues and messed up her kids in various ways.

I think it's SO much better that we live in a world where people who aren't really suited to parenthood don't have to do it.

Just as I think it's better we don't have 10 kids, watch half of them die and send them down a chimney. It's also in every country apart from the very poorest that women are choosing to have less kids.

Yes it's a big problem for economies but I think we have to adapt.

It's way it makes them feel. I don't work anymore (gave up when our second kid was 2 because of burnout) so I can easily go to everything but when we were both working it was much harder. A couple of times we missed things and DD would be the only kid in her class without someone there to support her and she was gutted. It's a village school with really high parent engagement and maybe it would be different elsewhere but if we didn't show up she would likely be the only one without someone there.

Why is the decision to not breed placed only at the door of women! It's not the case that all women are desperate to give up work and breed!
My partner and I both knew the desire to have kids wasnt there! Our passion in life is travelling, ok YouTube there are so many child free couples that travel long term and do not have an interest in kids!
Kids are completely unappealing to those that don't want them, it's not all about the money! People are exercising their right to choose!
There's threads on here where teachers are looking to get out of the profession because they've had nothing but hell from people's undisciplined kids since the new term started! That is something people have to think about! Someone on MN said that their kid is coming home from school in tears everyday since they went back because of how disruptive other kids are!
There's also still a lot of people with a bad attitude that mothers shouldn't work so unless a kid is wanted passionately, there's a lot of reasons to not bother.

Society has changed and it's irreversible because couple will never go back to allowing themselves to be pressured into breeding.

Also I have had lunatics online claim that previous generations that played out all day had cruel neglectful parents because they didn't keep us safely locked indoors all day! There's too many judgemental freaks about which makes kids even less desirable.

I’d say that it’s the primary factor in people choosing not to have any children at all, whereas for people who already have a child, it’s secondary to the cost - but it’s still a big factor.

Parents are expected to be more actively involved with their children than ever before. It’s no longer socially acceptable for children to play outside unsupervised for hours, it’s also no longer acceptable for them to have so much screen time, so people are expected to actively parent 24/7 now.

I think we’ve got to a point where we know too much now, so are always striving for the best, and it’s just not sustainable anymore.

We know that young children in primary school benefit from having a wide variety of different experiences for their enrichment, but partly due to funding issues, parents are expected to provide more materials themselves than ever before. Things that previously would have been class activities, like making Christmas hats, are now homework activities, so the onus is on the parents to sort everything out. Then there’s world book day, the nativity, the harvest festival etc. - there’s always something, and parents are expected to take an active role in it all.

Add to that, maternity care is at an all time low. Over regulated and underfunded, like everything else. It’s all a bit of a disaster.

A reason that’s come up amongst multiple people I know who have two children and would like a third, is that you can no longer fit 3 children under 10 in a normal car, even estate cars marketed at families, due to the newer car seat laws, so they’d have to get a people carrier or an SUV. They see it as an unnecessary extra cost.

I don’t think this is a factor, no.

Lack of support, other demands, financial impact, environmental concerns.

Obviously there are limiting contextual factors - but I don’t agree with you at all as parents can largely choose how they parent their DC and don’t have to follow the herd, latest parenting book etc.

For example, if you have a car you can choose to ferry DC around in it - equally they (and you) can still get on a bus or walk.

You can set your own expectations at home regarding chores.

I think perhaps women have got sick of crap blokes. When I was younger you had no one to ask "what's it like having children?" Your own Mother wasn't going to tell you it was awful.
Bur now young women have the Internet, they can talk to each other and older women they don't know. The don't have to listen to relatives who have to lie to them.
Young women now understand that, if they have a child, it's just them dealing with it. And the crap bloke continues his life unfettered by children. Perhaps the government need to make it attractive for young women to breed.

How can the government change men's behaviour though?

Are most so bad? I don't really date men myself, I know there is rising Internet misogyny though. Most men I know irl are OK, but then I'm not dating them, so..

Women have always done the lion's share. My life is 💯 easier than my DGM's on both sides, born late 1920's.
Catholic ireland, 10 DC and 11 DC, husbands who worked in the UK.
Boiling pigs feet. My DGM's worked too, in cold markets or laundry work.
The men were very hands off too.