To not know how to respond to my father's sexism?

[VerneySotter]

Hello Mumsnetters, I am a man who has come here in the past as a reader to get a female perspective and often found useful insights. This is my first post.

My elderly (80) father has always been sexist but in the way that would make you roll your eyes (commenting lewdly on TV celebrities, for example, or always judging women on appearances first and personality or ability second).

I have always hated it but my mother defended him (excuses like you know what he's like) and I regarded it as a battle not worth fighting.

However, I recently stayed with him with my children including my daughter (16). One day I noticed she was upset and I asked her why. She reluctantly admitted my father had said a horrible thing to her.

She was wearing short off-cut jeans and he said "Ooh I'd like to fondle those legs".

I am absolutely repulsed and beyond furious. I was too furious to confront him. We left the next day (as planned, without hardly a goodvye from me) and it is now three weeks later and I have not been able to speak to him (we usually speak once or twice a week).

I haven't told my wife the full details as my daughter begged me not to. She is more forgiving than me and sees the comment as a misfired attempt at humour. I do agree that I think it was a "Benny Hill" or "Carry On" type comment rather than an actual sexual approach which hardly bares thinking about! But how could be be so vile?

In my own mind despite having a good relationship with him all my life this is almost enough to justify cutting him off. But that would also involve cutting off my mother as she has pre-dementia and he is her carer and controls phone calls (I live far away).

I am conflicted. Should I open up to my wife? She knows we had a row but not about what. She has always been a big supporter of my Dad despite his failings but I know she would be as disgusted as I am. And if I confront him I think he would just fly into a fury, deny everything and block the only access I have to my mother. Honestly I would love to end my relationship with him but it's not possible.

Of course it's possible to cut him off.

Your daughter is watching how you react to this, and this will shape her, and what she sees as acceptable.

You've allowed his disgusting behaviour over the years as you felt it wasn't worth it to defend women, now it's been aimed at your daughter it's time to step up and say something.

Even calling his vile sexualised language towards your teenage daughter "benny hill" is you downplaying it.

Yes, it's horrible and very hard to see the bigger picture when you grow up with it. Thank you

It shouldn't be hard to see the bigger picture when your father sexulises your teenage daughter.

Your loyalty and protection should be to her.

Protect your daughter.

Yes. You are right. This is why I posted here, I needed this

Your father behaved towards your daughter like an incestuous paedophile and you still haven't confronted him 3 weeks later?

Did I read that right??

So not only did he make a sexual
comment to his own sixteen year old granddaughter, but you think he would be willing to deprive his own wife, who is unwell, of access to her own son if anyone dares to call him on his behaviour?

Why do you think that? Has he behaved in controlling ways before?

I feel you need to have a conversation with your wife. If she finds out later she will be furious as the comment was made to a 'child' and she was unaware of it besides your daughter might be going through emotions she may want to speak about to her mum ( depending on their relationship). You can then decide as a famimy how you move forwards. From a safeguarding perspective I would take her back there. She needs reassurance and love now so she forgets this vile comment.

Yes you did 🙄

The OP has come here for advice - not to be berated.

He obviously knows its horrible as he's explained.

I'm absolutely not excusing it, and still think you need to stand up for your daughter, but is it possibly a sign on mental decline for him? Disinhibited behaviour can be. I know there's already an issue re him commenting about women on TV, but with the comment being made to your granddaughter I wonder if it could be something more.
Both my grandparents on one side started acting 'over familiar' with family members before later being diagnosed with dementia. Not as bad as this, but things like my grandma commenting on younger family members outfits (positive and negative) when previously she would have thought it impolite to do so.

Is it possible your F is also developing dementia? It would explain loss of inhibitions if so.
I would tell your DW. It’s easy for people to say cut him off, but there’s also your DM to consider as well so it’s a nuanced scenario.
I wouldn’t let your DD spend time with him again, she deserves not to be talked about like that.

You've allowed his disgusting behaviour over the years as you felt it wasn't worth it to defend women,
I find this to be a totally unfair comment, the op said he didn’t want to get into a thing with his dad, not the same as not feeling it wasn’t worth it to defend women

Excuse me but this isn’t even about you. Your poor daughter was the victim of a nasty and sexual comment made to her by her own grandfather.
She may be embarrassed, 16 year olds often are, but she is looking at you for your response to this.
It is not enough for you to reduce contact. It is not enough for you to ‘cut him off’. You, for the sake of your teenage daughter, must call him out on his behaviour. His comment was distasteful at best and disturbing in reality. You address it with him and you make damn sure he knows how uncomfortable it has made you all, and how you do not tolerate your child or any other being treated like that. She will not want to be in a room with him ever again.

You are an absolute wuss and apologist if you do nothing. And you must inform her mother, I can’t believe you haven’t already.

Is he of sound mind? Because that is a disgusting thing to say to his granddaughter.

Oh come off it, OP says he has a history of vile sexism.

OP, you were at fault for not tackling this head on straight away - if you had just said to your Dad, “I really don’t appreciate those sort of remarks to my daughter and nor does she: it’s totally inappropriate”, your DD would have seen that you acknowledged it as unacceptable, and even if your DF tried to laugh it off as nothing, he would know that it wasn’t OK and you weren’t about to put up with it. As it is, your DD thought it was misplaced humour, and your DF is probably wondering what on earth he has done wrong. You need to speak to your DF and make it totally clear that neither you nor your daughter will put up with that sort of remark, and if he tries to pass it off as “banter”, make it clear that it really isn’t, and that in relation to his grand-daughter it’s creepy and horrible. Your DM is probably wondering why in earth you haven’t spoken for three weeks - you need to sort this situation out. You know your father: you need to approach this in such a way that he won’t “fly into a fury” - but he must have noticed your radio silence.

It goes beyond sexist language. Wanting to fondle his granddaughter is paedophilic. It’s depraved. It’s a criminal act. As others have said protect your daughter at all costs. He is vile.

'Horrible'??

Yes, having your grandfather making sexual comments about wanting to fondle you, and your father doing absolutely bugger all about it, is indeed 'horrible'.

I don't care if the OP has come here to be 'berated' or not.

He's sending a clear message to that girl that this sort of behaviour should be swept under the carpet.

He isn't just sexist. He's sexually predatory with incestuous fantasies. What he did is sexual harassment, which IMO is better expressed as verbal sexual abuse. He's an utterly vile, twisted sicko. Of course you must tell your wife and cut him off. NEVER let any man get away with treating your daughter like this or you will wound her deeply. She will not trust you, and if she can't trust her own father to protect her, who can she trust? Your mother should also be told and if she makes excuses this time, cut her off as an enabler of abuse. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Indeed!

That's so icky.... She's his granddaughter. You need to speak up and let him know that what he said isn't just disgusting, but it's illegal. If he continues to act like this he won't see you or the kids.

I feel for you OP.
You’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I will be honest, I would tackle this by letter (email if you must) and write to your Mother and Father separately, explaining the situation. Don’t mention specifics, just that your DD felt uncomfortable by comments and that you need to support her. Please consider your DM and her feelings in this, she risks losing contact with her son and granddaughter.

OP, ignore the outraged posters. You have to balance protecting your daughter and seeing your mum. i would suggest the following:

• don’t take your kids to see your parents again, you go alone
• tell your wife about what happened so she can support you, but tell her that dd doesn’t want to talk about it and you suggest managing this by ensuring dd or other dc aren’t near your father ever again
• re-inforce to dd that she did nothing wrong and you won’t allow your father to speak to her like that

Christ, that is beyond grim. I think you are getting rather a hard time here op, you didn’t say it and you know it’s vile, you’ve removed your daughter from the situation. I think you have to tell your wife and then decide together what to do. Personally, I’d have torn a strip off him so fast and hard he’d have been thunder struck. NO ONE is entitled to speak to your daughter like that, least of all her grand father. He’s a perverted, twisted vile excuse of a “man” and I’d be telling him that.
Reassure your daughter that she’s done absolutely nothing wrong and it’s all him. The sad fact is, she won’t forget this. A friend’s dad said something similar to me when I was 14 and I still remember it now, decades later, it was awful. She sometimes posts pictures of him on FB and I still think “filthy bastard”.

What was your relationship like with him before this?? I ask because it seems like you’re frightened of him.

My father in law is a sexist old so and so, he was also quite unpleasant to my husband whilst growing up. Lots of things were left unsaid because of residual fear from childhood. Could this be the same?

My husband did confront him in the end quite forcefully and found his bullying father was no longer the person he was.

I’d go back and have a chat about this to him even if it’s intimidating. Explain how unacceptable that comment was and how your daughter now feels very uncomfortable coming back so won’t be doing so. She does need you battling on her behalf.

From bitter experience I know sexist old men don’t take one iota of notice of women saying anything, so it can’t be your wife who says something, it has to be you. But your wife needs to know, your daughter needs emotional support over this.