To wonder if all those years ago, this was actually rape?

[DryHands]

Almost 20years ago I was on a drunken night out with friends where we ended up getting separated. I bumped into a guy I had been out for a drink with a couple of times before, it had fizzled out and there was nothing of note between us, the most we had done was have a kiss previously. As the taxi queues were really long he suggested I call a taxi from his house round the corner. I remember laughing and saying as long as you know nothings happening once I get back to yours. Young, drunk, and feeling naively safe because he wasn’t a stranger, I walked back with him to call a taxi at his house. Once there we had a kiss, I wasn’t against this, however this sounds when you are single in your early 20s a kiss means nothing. He began undressing me and I resisted and said stop it. He carried on, I continued to say no. I wasn’t shouting or fighting, I remember feeling embarrassed at him seeing my body and trying to squirm away from him as he proceeded to go down on me while I was saying stop it, I wasn’t shouting it so maybe he thought I was only pretending to protest. There was crucially a conversation about sex which is hazy but I remember saying I didn’t want to and him pressuring me a lot “come on” etc and it then just happening, I think I just gave in and silently agreed and I’m ashamed to say lay there while he did his thing. Sometimes I think back on it and feel disgusted with myself for not telling him to fuck off and wonder why I didn’t. Sometimes I wonder that as he knew I didn’t really want to and although I wasn’t shouting or fighting I clearly wasn’t into it - was this rape? Then I think stop being dramatic, probably if I had started shouting etc he would have in all likelihood stopped, so maybe it was crossed wires and my fault for not making a fuss and it’s part him being pushy and gross and part me being too weak in that moment to go nuts like I should have done.
I’m not looking for sympathy or anyone to tell me to get counselling if I still think about it, weirdly I dont really feel anything about it other than annoyed with myself, but more because I don’t know if I’m being really dramatic or not when the word rape pops into my head I am just wondering in other peoples opinions, would you consider this rape or would this be a case of two drunk 20 somethings accidentally having a one night stand & it happens all the time?

Yes, it was rape. You said no, you told him to stop, he ignored and did it anyway. He raped you.
I hope you're ok.

You said no multiple times. You were clearly uncomfortable and didn’t to get away. It’s rape.

You only gave in and still not verbally to get it over with as possibly safer than trying to get him off. Coercive and rape.

Yes it was rape. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

I think the grey area in my mind is yes, I did say I didn’t want to as he started crossing the line once we kissed and I was very clearly not into it as I lay there basically playing dead, but I also just kind of went along with it and allowed him to pressure me into something I didn’t want to do…..so is it rape or is it pushy creep pushing someone into something they didn’t really want to do but ended up just letting them do, but not actually rape?

Our understanding of consent was very different 20 years ago, what you describe applies to several of my early sexual encounters too. In some ways it is more upsetting now than it was at the time because my understanding of what happened has changed.

You were drunk and couldn't / didn't give enthusiastic consent. You said no, that should have been enough. It doesn't have to be violent to be rape. That said, I doubt the men involved would consider themselves rapists then or even now.

I found it helpful to learn that freezing and fawning are recognised responses, it helped me to stop blaming myself for not doing enough.

Rape is an emotive word. It's fine if you need time to process that word in line with your experience of what happening. A frightening word for you and what should be absolutely shocking for any man who thinks this type of coercive sexual activity is in anyway acceptable or legal.

He was scum, and I'm sorry you had to endure this.

Yes, I’m so sorry it was definitely rape

A 'pushy creep pushing someone into something they didn’t really want to do but ended up just letting them do' is a rapist. No ifs, no buts. I'm so sorry x

It's true that the idea it isn't rape if she doesn't have injuries (didn't really try to fight him off) has hung around like cluster flies. But untrue that everyone thought so until now/recently. Decent people have never believed this. Rape is a legal term whose meaning has changed over the years, but it's never been acceptable to pressure someone into sex.

My first penetrative sex, in the 1970s, was what would later be called date rape. Very similar to the experience you describe, @DryHands. The older women at work told me it was rape, spent time with me while I processed this and, above all, assured me sex wouldn't always be like that! I'm so grateful to them.

My misogynistic father, a police officer, taught me self defence - another thing I'm grateful for. Despite coming out with nasty remarks like "Should've kept her legs together" on a regular basis, he explained that in some situations, it's wiser to go along with it and walk away physically unharmed.

My horrid Dad and the lovely women at work would have disagreed on a lot of things, but all of them knew a bloke sticking his dick in you does NOT damage your integrity or worth. It's always shocking to be overpowered, and the sexual element adds an extra distressing layer. It's really not nice to be used by a rapist.

You did the safest thing available at the time. The guy was a twat. He 'took advantage of' (raped) you. It reflects absolutely nothing about who you are.

I’d also say it was rape. Hope you’re okay.

No OP you didn’t go along with it you froze. It’s a very very natural response (fight, flight or freeze). You did what you needed to in That situation to survive it. Yes, it was rape. No means no.

You did absolutely nothing wrong and you said no. That’s all you needed to do. Also remember that no response is also not giving consent (if someone was unconscious for example) so you did this as well.

Be kind to yourself and I’m sorry you went through that.

It might be helpful to know OP that normal responses to a physically stronger threat (men) are flight, fight, freeze and appease (also referred to as fawn). You froze and perhaps appeased. That's normal in highly scary situations and does not mean you consented. I am so sorry you had this experience. It is why the onus is now on people seeking enthusiastic consent. This man knew you were not enthusiastically consenting.

It's pretty clearly rape. The two of you kissed and that was consensual. He began to undress you, you said no. You consistently and clearly said no from then on, including during a specific discussion about sex. You never said yes. He did not stop. You say I think I just gave in and silently agreed but that's irrelevant; he clearly heard you say no and understood what that meant (as you say, he was arguing, trying to persuade you) and as far as he knew there was never any kind of yes, let alone a clear one.

You say you lay there while he did his thing and think back on it and feel disgusted with myself for not telling him to fuck off. All of this is confusing to you and blaming yourself or wondering if you could have done or said more to stop him or get away is very common in these circumstances. It's common for rape victims to freeze and it's also common for people to dissociate during the act, to basically "play dead", or to hold still to avoid getting hurt or in the hope it will be over sooner. Even the police and the courts generally understand and account for these factors now. None of these things change his pretty much clear and absolute guilt.

I know categorically I had no intention of sleeping with him, and didn’t want to sleep with him. I know I said stop it/dont when he was going down on me and remember feeling mortified it was happening. The thing that troubles me is the hazy conversation afterwards where I know sex was mentioned and I know I said I don’t want to/he was very much pressuring me saying “come on”
not a big deal type stuff, but when I’ve tried to replay the conversation over the years, because I had been drinking I cannot be absolutely 100% certain that I didn’t mutter “ok then” or something to that effect and basically submit, I know I was as mentioned laying there very clearly not participating in it and well not actually doing anything other than laying there, but if I did say “ok” at any point does that mean its more a case of yes he was extremely pushy and sleazy but I gave him the green light?

Yes, it was rape. You told him No multiple times. No is no, regardless of you're saying it or shouting with gusto. He knew you were drunk, and deliberately lured you back to his place, under the guise of it being easier to call a taxi. He ignored you saying no, carried on and in the end it happened because you felt you had no choice. You lay there, because your mind and body froze. He used the fact you'd had a couple of dates together, to make you feel safe. Please don't blame yourself. He is 100% to blame. He's a predator, and the likelihood is, you weren't the first women he'd did this to or were the last.

Saw my therapist today and we were talking about the adrenaline responses and as well asnfight, flight, freeze and fawn, there's also flop - or play dead - which is apparently the most common response to rape. What you did was a fucking ingrained survival response to what was happening to you. You did nothing wrong and yes you were rated. I am so very sorry. Never too late to seek support x

he was extremely pushy and sleazy

So an informal word for that is 'rapey', isn't it?

As @IWillBeWaxingAnOwl says, the concept of 'consent' is being replaced by enthusiastic participation. Consent implies permission to do something to you.

When sexual penetration is being done to you, you're not having sex with them. Your body's being used by the other person. That makes him a rapist.

Think of it from a judicial point of view. Imagine the court could see a detailed recording of the event. Would they agree he 'reasonably believed' you were keen to have sex with him? No, they wouldn't! Because you weren't, and you showed it.

An 'ok then' in those circumstances is not a free choice to consent. He should have stopped as soon as you said no. You knew you didn't freely and enthusiastically consent to what was happening, and so did he, but he didn't care about what you wanted. It sounds like he would have carried on regardless of what you said. So no OP, none of what happened was your fault and whether or not you said ok later doesn't change the fact that his actions were rape. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Yes it was rape. Please stop blaming yourself. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

It was rape. I am so sorry that it happened to you.

You were in no fit state to consent let alone anything else. You need to work out how you feel about it and what you want to do next.

Hope you are ok. You were too drunk to remember the conversation which means you could not give consent. Forgive yourself for being disappointed in how you dealt with it at the time. You froze - if you had tried to fight him off, it could have been even more serious.

Yes OP, that was rape. Clear as day… you even said no and protested (which is not a requirement to define rape btw). You said no, he did it anyway. You were also drunk which limits your ability to consent.

Whether you shouted it loudly enough is not something that defines rape… you didn’t want to have sex and he made you anyway.

Yes it was rape. Sometimes people are unsure because it didn't ruin their life but what you describe was 100% rape.