To wonder if all those years ago, this was actually rape?

[DryHands]

Almost 20years ago I was on a drunken night out with friends where we ended up getting separated. I bumped into a guy I had been out for a drink with a couple of times before, it had fizzled out and there was nothing of note between us, the most we had done was have a kiss previously. As the taxi queues were really long he suggested I call a taxi from his house round the corner. I remember laughing and saying as long as you know nothings happening once I get back to yours. Young, drunk, and feeling naively safe because he wasn’t a stranger, I walked back with him to call a taxi at his house. Once there we had a kiss, I wasn’t against this, however this sounds when you are single in your early 20s a kiss means nothing. He began undressing me and I resisted and said stop it. He carried on, I continued to say no. I wasn’t shouting or fighting, I remember feeling embarrassed at him seeing my body and trying to squirm away from him as he proceeded to go down on me while I was saying stop it, I wasn’t shouting it so maybe he thought I was only pretending to protest. There was crucially a conversation about sex which is hazy but I remember saying I didn’t want to and him pressuring me a lot “come on” etc and it then just happening, I think I just gave in and silently agreed and I’m ashamed to say lay there while he did his thing. Sometimes I think back on it and feel disgusted with myself for not telling him to fuck off and wonder why I didn’t. Sometimes I wonder that as he knew I didn’t really want to and although I wasn’t shouting or fighting I clearly wasn’t into it - was this rape? Then I think stop being dramatic, probably if I had started shouting etc he would have in all likelihood stopped, so maybe it was crossed wires and my fault for not making a fuss and it’s part him being pushy and gross and part me being too weak in that moment to go nuts like I should have done.
I’m not looking for sympathy or anyone to tell me to get counselling if I still think about it, weirdly I dont really feel anything about it other than annoyed with myself, but more because I don’t know if I’m being really dramatic or not when the word rape pops into my head I am just wondering in other peoples opinions, would you consider this rape or would this be a case of two drunk 20 somethings accidentally having a one night stand & it happens all the time?

It’s rape.

Consent is an ENTHUSIASTIC YES not an absence of no. Someone should be clearly and confidently agreeing to sex while able to consent (not drunk or otherwise vulnerable).

If you cannot recall the conversation you were too drunk to consent.

If you said OK because you were drunk that is not an enthusiastic yes said by someone in their right mind.

If you said OK because a man coerced you while drunk into saying it - after he had already sexually assaulted you by the way - that is not an enthusiastic yes.

A man knows that someone who says ‘no’ multiple times is not consenting to sex. Saying OK because you’re drunk and have been coerced is not a green light.

I am sorry this happened to you, OP. Yes, it was rape. Even 20 years ago this would very clearly be rape. This was not at all your fault.

Someone playing dead is clearly not into what you are doing - he would have known this. You were also too drunk to consent and you were vulnerable because you were now away from others and in an acquaintance's house. He carried on regardless, because it's what he wanted. It's what he had in mind the second he suggested you call a taxi from his house.

I am so sorry to say that it was - and to be asking now makes me question how long it has been playing on your mind. I am sorry you have experienced this and been going through this. Without going into detail here I had a similar situation, also 20ish years ago. I went off the rails a bit and finally realised about 5 years after the incident that it had been a contributing factor which was both scary and a relief. A relief that I could understand and start to heal from it. I hope you have a great support network but PM me if you want someone to talk to. Please be kind to yourself.

@DryHands, have you seen the famous 'Cup of tea Metaphor'? Thames Valley Police commissioned it in 2015, and it's brilliant.

If he did anything to you that you didn’t want - whether you explicitly said no or not is irrelevant - that is sexual assault / rape. This was rape.

It’s a fine line. I had a similar experience in my early 20s. Looking back I wouldn’t say it was rape, but probably coercion as I ‘gave in’. Neither of us had been drinking though. It didn’t feel like I’d been raped at the time.

Conversely I was sexually assaulted in my early teens - thankfully it didn’t escalate in to anything more than being shoved in a bush and roughly kissed, big difference between that and being ‘persuaded’ to go further. I really regret not reporting that - it was a school boy - I was innocently walking home from my own school. I was literally a minute from my house.

If he penetrated you and you said no then it was rape.

I want to support this with an observation that probably isn't repeated often enough. It came up in court cases and, afterwards, in Parliament. The view of 'consent' as an absence of no - that the onus is on the victim to make her No be heard - relies upon an assumption of consent. One phrase used was 'in a permanent state of readiness'.

Women are not permanently available for sex! No-one has the right to assume we're always up for it unless we 'withdraw consent'. The consent isn't there to begin with, we either show willing - and continue to show willing participation - or there is no 'consent'.

For what it's worth, this applies to men as well. An erection doesn't mean he's willing to have sex: you need to be similarly assured of happy participation.

100% rape in my mind OP.
I'm so sorry.
This most certainly was not on you.
That loser raped you.
You have nothing to forgive yourself for, nor be annoyed at yourself for.
You were very young.
He completely took advantage of your weakened state.
Lowlife.
"There but for the grace of god, go most of us".
You were just unlucky.

I agree with the above comments. And you saying "ok then" as it was happening doesn't make it ok. I wonder if the "ok then" was maybe for yourself as in "ok this is happening, let's get out of here with as little harm as possible" so: freeze, flop and fawn.
If it's already happening without your enthusiastic consent then your brain will protect you with one of the F words

If I'm wrong and the "ok" wasn't for yourself, it was still rape

Yes OP it was definitely rape. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. Just because you knew him and didn't "fight him off" doesn't detract from what he did. I went through an experience I now know was date rape - but it was 40 years ago! And I still think about it now when sexual assault comes up. I was on a date with the man (boy, we were about 18) and we walked down to a river in the dark. We were heavy petting then he progressed to sex. I told him I didn't want to but he said it wouldn't have gone down there with him if I didn't want to have sex I just laid there and waited till it was over, it was obvious I wasn't willing. I didn't tell anyone till my husband years later. I didnt think it affected me, because at the time I somehow thought of it as 'sex without consent" rather than rape. Because like you, OP, at the time I felt rape involved violence or more resistance. But I've remembered it often, and wonder how many other times he did something similar to other women.

And please don't blame yourself OP, you did nothing wrong, the blame was entirely with that man.

I think this is a very common mindset actually. That it was ‘sex without consent’ not rape… because rape is something scary that happens when men jump out of the bushes and grab you.

But much more often rape is with someone you know, it started as something you wanted like kissing or petting… but then it became sex without consent. Which is rape.

I feel similarly confused about a situation I had. I said no repeatedly but was pressured and pressured and eventually gave in and stopped saying no (I am also unsure if I said yes at this point or just stopped saying no). I did not freeze or feel afraid as I knew the person well, I just caved to relentless pressure and emotional blackmail etc. I hated every second of it, and it felt like rape at the time and afterwards. It was the only time in my life I've had sex and not been a participant (I felt like an inanimate object being used) and I found this extremely unpleasant. I felt annoyed with myself for giving in and allowing it to happen. I dont think officially my situation was rape because I gave in, but it certainly wasn't enthusiastic participation. Regardless of whether it met the definition of rape or not, I know that what he did was wrong in the same way that knowingly pressuring anyone to do anything against their will for your benefit is wrong. Even if not rape it was traumatic and I try to be compassionate to myself for giving in as there are all kinds of dynamics at play in these situations and the person pressuring is the one in the wrong. I hope you can find peace with what happened in your situation.

Fight, flight, freeze, friend are all normal reaction to panicked/scary situations and we don’t always get to choose which one our body will pick. You froze and that’s normal , he knew you didn’t want to have sex based on your words and your body language and he chose to ignore it and do it anyway. That’s rape, I’m so sorry you went through that.

@HisBlueEyeswhat happened to you was 100% rape, and was rape in the eyes of British law. I’m sorry this happened to you.