To think we need to learn how to debate again

[MyHeartyCoralSnail]

There is ever decreasing tolerance for people with different views, People think they have the moral high ground and that their views are the only ones which matter.

This view is endorsed in schools, the work place, the Media (even the BBC has stopped any effort to be unbiased). The more intolerant we are the wider the divide is becoming.

Schools need to be teaching kids to debate, it needs to be part of the national curriculum, schools need to welcome all views equally and discuss them.

Universities and work places need to stop censorship of views.

It is largely the far Left who seem to dislike reasoned debate.

If we taught people how to explain, how to listen to alternative perspectives the world would be much better

Who do you think are the far left?

You mention media, schools, etc in your post. Do you think the BBC represents the far left?

And, this is one example of why it would be so valuable to bring this skill back into schools.

I was with you, op, until this:

It is largely the far Left who seem to dislike reasoned debate

Don't you see the hypocrisy in what you have written there? 'Othering' is a common tactic employed by both extremes in order to shut down reasoned debate. You have lost the argument at this point I think.

We already have this - there are laws against incitement to violence so (using your topic as an example) discussing the place, contributions and challenges of migrants in society should be fine but instructing others to burn down migrant hotels should attract Police attention.

Unfortunately at the moment the reading of this is deeply skewed and always in the same political direction. Trans activists literally threaten violence, rape and death against women online, posing with blood soaked T shirts with no action taken against them, a trans woman convicted of torture and attempted murder while out on licence incites a crowd to punch a Terf which the courts say is a joke. But when a woman posts a photo of a suffragette ribbon online she is arrested because (somehow) it is threatening and when the comedian Graham Linehan posts online that people should punch an aggressive trans woman in the balls (advice the Queen would presumably concur with) he is arrested by five armed Police. You couldn’t make it up.

Personally I would send the Police out after those issuing death and rape threats but I would want a nice reassuring desk sergeant explaining to complainants that being rude or having different opinions isn’t actually illegal and that saying punch them in the balls doesn’t actually meet the bar for legal action unless they can demonstrate serious injury happened as a result.

We need to be able to talk about difficult topics without being threatened, shot or excommunicated from social circles. We also need to address the purity spirals in some groups (goodness knows how).

I never get why people think workplaces need to facilitate debate.

If your colleague is getting married at the weekend and you think marriage is a social construct that harms women for e.g., being at work with them isn't an opportunity to have a great debate about it.

It's actually an opportunity for you to get on with your work and leave them to get on with theirs.

I suggest you read through the first few comments where this point is addressed in full

That's a pretty extreme example, though. We spend large parts of our lives at work and with colleagues. The diversity of thought, opinions and backgrounds is what I enjoy about work because socially, my friends and family largely share my values and therefore my opinions. I understand that there are those who go to work to, well.... work - and that is all. But in most places I've worked there has been quite a healthy culture and a balance between working and getting to know the people you spend 5 days a week with.

I agree op and it’s not just the ‘big’ topics like immigration, Gaza climate change etc, people don’t seem to tolerate anyone having a different opinion to them on anything.
eg a friend said she was watching a series and it was the best thing she had ever seen. I mildly remarked that I had started watching it but found it a bit disjointed. Rather than explain that it got better etc she got all huffy with me and said ‘well I like it’.
Seems like you are no longer able to disagree with anyone.

I think that this is a very different point, It has nothing to do with the work environment. Work places should be about work surely. So I was thinking more in terms of work place policy which states only certain views can be held, that then becomes work place related. Thanks for letting me clarify.

Well it rather depends on whether the 'purposely placed point' was in fact deliberate. To understand your motives, and whether or not this is actually true, I'd need to know you in real life.

If it was indeed purposely placed, then why haven't you debated with those who have reacted, rather than attempt to simply shut down those who have pointed out your hypocrisy.

If they've fallen down a rabbit hole you skillfully and knowingly placed for them, surely you cannot be surprised that they stumbled down it and reacted in an entirely predictable manner? What's your real view on how The Left debate vs The Right?

Also, the posts haven't addressed it 'in full'. Or was your attempt to shut me down by referring me to previous posts another trap?

I think this is a really good example of the “it’s my way or the highway” mentality. I do wonder what is holding people back from being able or maybe just willing to discuss points.

I was in the debate team at achool. Did a few competitions.

Think it really helped with my public speaking.

Not sure if they do them anymore.

I hope that the far left will in fact realise that they are marginalising themselves with their aggressiveness. They seem to have a misplaced superiority complex.

Do you think there should be any limits to free speech or should all views, opinions and beliefs etc be able to be aired regardless?

Who do you think represents the far left? Can you name names?

Yanbu but I think it’s gone too far now and I can’t see it ever being pulled back.

Well first you would need to define what you mean by the Left vs Right debate.

It is up to you to decide whether I purposely placed it.

Now I might be able to help here by clarifying why I did so. I could have also put the blame on the right.

People find certain words triggering. I purposely kept the first (and most relevant part) fairly neutral. That was really the part that was worthy of debate. So why did I put an almost throw away comment at the bottom criticising the Left? There is a large contingent on Mumsnet who are very vocal about their support of the policies of the Left. In my experience, on balance they are the most likely on here to resort to ad hominem comments. Clearly this is not true for all with left politics, it’s just my observation.,Therefore it was more likely they would largely ignore the majority of my post. I could have written right but in my experience it wouldn’t have had the same impact. If I was writing the same post on a largely right leaning board, I would probably have written right.

Re your point about effectively not writing this out on my first response to people I was anticipating they would come back and ask

I think all views should be aired. As soon as you limit that you have to decide why and what views, and that will always be based on subjectivity and value judgements.

I suppose you'd agree Reform are on the right of the political spectrum? And they're the ones in power at Nottingham council that have refused to allow the local paper into the meetings?
Hardly encouraging free speech.

I guess the point is why? Is it lack of education, lack of understanding of the point they’re trying to make?is it fear of being ostracised from their group? Fear of something else? Or something else entirely?

What is the barrier to, in the end, understanding the view points of others?

What about, say, libel or defamation? Or the classic "shouting 'fire' in a theatre"?

And do you see a distinction between a government doing things to limit free speech, and a privately-owned platform?

Why would I need to?

Because you allude to the far left and I'm trying to work out what kind of views you think that represents. To me the far-left are probably hardcore communists but they're few and far between these days. On the other hand I know that eg Trump rails against "far left extremists" but he's actually talking about people who are generally barely left-of-centre but who might disagree on one or two particular points.

So who's the far left for you?

I think the inability to tolerate people disagreeing with you is a cultural thing. In some families, polite disagreement is encouraged, but in many, it is seen as a sign of weakness to be challenged or to be wrong. As a society though, the internet and social media have obviously made people more shouty and tribal than before. They are not media that encourage measured thinking.

I learned to debate from my family, which was very tolerant of disagreements, but also at school. We did a course in critical thinking and held debates. It was extremely formative. I have a close friend who comes from a family where any disagreement feels like an attack. Even minor disagreements like whether a restaurant is any good. She gets offended very easily.

I do wonder as well whether there is a basic intelligence issue. Do you need a certain level of intelligence to hold an opinion while understanding that your opinion is not 'you'?

I don't know about your DC but mine are always encouraged to debate at school. They do theology which is great for it, have wellbeing lessons and tutor room time, loads of speaking clubs for various subjects.
The average teen would rather grunt but it doesn't mean they aren't actively encouraged to debate; it's largely what History and English teaches for GCSE.

I actually think it is a "people who don't read" thing - I posted elsewhere but reading teaches empathy. As we age we do less of it and therefore seeing someone else's pov becomes harder and very black and white as we ignore the grey areas. We need to improve national literacy IMO (esp in men and boys).