To think that your marriage will be as sexist as the man you marry?

[ForBreezySloth]

People talk a lot about how household labour, childcare and emotional labour often fall disproportionately on women. But at the end of the day, isn’t a marriage only as equal as the two people in it? If you marry a man who believes domestic work is “women’s work”, then your marriage will likely reflect that. If you marry a man who sees you as an equal partner, things will likely be more balanced.

Obviously, societal norms play a role but do people sometimes ignore personal responsibility in all this? If someone chooses to have children with a man who never lifted a finger before, can they really be surprised when he doesn’t step up later?

Or is this view too simplistic? AIBU?

Yes and no. People also fall into patterns and people change, especially if you have children.

Hmm… sexist men tend to marry sexist women. A woman who considers herself an equal to a man is unlikely to stay in a relationship with someone sexist long enough to marry him. They are simply not compatible.

i grew up in a very machist culture, it was always my impression that it is the women who kept the machism alive: They treat their boys like princes and their daughters as cinderellas.

Yes I sort of agree. But you also see on here frequently that lots of women are under the impression that all men are like their useless partners.

Why can't be "as sexist as the woman you marry?"

Bit sexist there OP . . .

The world isn't divided into sexist and non sexist men. All men are entirely capable of being both, and throughout the years can show more or less sexist traits, dependent on circumstances, and what best serves their interests.
A young woman living with a young man with minimal domestics responsibilities, no children, small flat, both working, eat out a lot, may well find he does his share of what little there is to do, and respects her career because doing so has no negative impact on his.
Fast forward to a couple of children and house, a maternity leave that establishes her as default child carer, lots of extra responsibilities and grunt work he wont much care for, and she may discover a different side to him.

There's definitely truth in this, but it is also societal, even though I travel more for work and have a less flexible more senior role than DH, it's still always me the school calls even though DH is primary contact, same with nursery, GP and most activities. I just either call DH or tell them to. Also the responses we got from various people when we said DH was condensing his hours after my mat leave and so was I and no I wasn't going part time we would be sharing childcare and school runs equally.
DH has been praised (by others not me) because he's so good because he's changing a nappy, putting some washing on, not asking me when I'l be home to cook dinner, doesn't mind that sometimes I'm not home to do bedtime.
The bar is low

Yes, exactly. I’ve lost track of the number of posters on here who’ve told me that my DH is imaginary because he does all the cooking, grocery shopping and most of the laundry, and his fair share of parenting, household gruntwork, lifts, handles all the relationships with his side of the family.

I definitely agree that there is nothing inherently sexist about marriage and/or having children. I do find it very annoying when people say things like “it’s just how it is for mothers” when they’re talking about things to do with extra work. It’s very ingrained for some people though, my DH does half, but I’ve seen people on MN say “I bet the people who say their DH does half are either lying or delusional”. Very desperate to insist that their shit husband is the norm and no more can be expected of him.

I do think it’s probably easier to not really notice that someone doesn’t pull their weight when there are no children though. So I don’t think it’s as simple as “why did you have children with him??”

Honestly I think a lot of the sexist division of Labour kicks in after children.

I know a lot of couples where it’s all seemed very equal until babies arrived, and then more often than not she becomes manager of home and children (and husband) - usually while holding down a full time job.

I think maternity leave is to blame for some of this - often a year (or more with multiple children) of women taking on more of the domestic role as they are at home, and it never evens out when they go back to work.

The trouble is I don’t think people really know how their relationship with evolve after having children, for example. People have ideas about how they will be but life happens and things can change.

Too simplistic. Some women make bad choices but some men are equal partners until marriage and the first kid arrives.

Not if you talk it through in detail in advance. I was very clear that no way would I be stepping back at work once I’d had DS, and that DH was going to have to find ways to make his job far more child-friendly, or change jobs.

Come on!

Sexism disproportionately affects women negatively.

Yep my friend did all that. Her husband agreed.

And reneged on everything he agreed to so she left him.

I married a man who believed in equal but his employer turned down his flexible working request.

That's an interesting point.
Women are often the bearers and communicators of the culture.
Isn't it largely women who perpetuate FGM.

I totally agree with you op. I never quite understand women with multiple children moaning that they’ve ended up as domestic drudges while their husbands peacock through careers, hobbies and life. You married and enabled it!!! Women need to be assured of values and attitudes before they put a ring on it (or whatever people do to formally shack up these days).

I'm mid 20s and date men from 24-33 and I'm specifically clear in asking what type of family they envision when they have kids who does what? 9/10 most men I've encountered will say they believe they are the provider and women should do the 'home stuff'. It's important to ask these questions

You end up in the relationship you think you deserve. If you have low self worth you’re more likely to tolerate some of the diabolical behaviour we read about on MN. If you have self respect, see yourself as an autonomous individual who directs their own life, then you’re more likely to end up in a respectful, equal relationship and also more likely to walk away if things turn toxic, for whatever reason.

I don’t think blaming ‘society’ for poor personal choices does women any favours - it’s patronising and disempowering.

Women don't end up with low self esteem and a lack of self respect because unlike the superior women they forgot to pick it up with the weekly shop. Believing you don't deserve good treatment is a result of a complex set of experiences and messages that usually go back to childhood, and get reinforced by environment and peers. Society if you will.

Low self worth as a result of an abusive childhood - something I have great sympathy for - is not a permanent feature of life that can’t be changed. It’s up to individuals , as adults, to take control of their lives and find ways to heal, develop, etc. You can’t go through life blaming your childhood or ‘society’ for your bad choices. This goes for men and women.

Actually, I think the most significant factor is how assertive the woman is, and the second is how much money she earns in comparison to her other half.

It’s surprising how much everyday sexist stereotyping goes on unconsciously, every day.

DH filled in the emergency contact form for DD’s nursery with both our details but his first, followed by mine.

In the 3 years DD attended the nursery, they never, ever, contacted DH, when something was needed. They called me every single time, because childcare is something a woman does, obviously.

No, it doesn't.

Tell me one thing you can't do that a man can?