To think that your marriage will be as sexist as the man you marry?

[ForBreezySloth]

People talk a lot about how household labour, childcare and emotional labour often fall disproportionately on women. But at the end of the day, isn’t a marriage only as equal as the two people in it? If you marry a man who believes domestic work is “women’s work”, then your marriage will likely reflect that. If you marry a man who sees you as an equal partner, things will likely be more balanced.

Obviously, societal norms play a role but do people sometimes ignore personal responsibility in all this? If someone chooses to have children with a man who never lifted a finger before, can they really be surprised when he doesn’t step up later?

Or is this view too simplistic? AIBU?

Fathers play an incredible role in shaping their daughters’ expectations. My gf was a wonderful, wise and empathetic man who emphatically supported my dm and her dsis as “women’s libbers” in the 1970s. And my df took a hand in every part of the household.
I think I was enormously privileged for growing up with those role models.

As a peri menopausal woman now I am learning how incredibly powerful hormones are at blinding us to what should be obvious. They cast a golden glow over behaviours that should be abhorrent, or at least off putting. It’s a clever biological quirk that keeps the human race going.

DH is a good one, but there have still been little things that, in the absence of an oestrogen fog, seem considerably less adorable now. But my early role models embedded instincts to swerve other unsuitable men.

I don’t disagree you op that who you marry determines so much, but it’s very important to recognise that much of our good luck reflects privilege more than inherent superiority.

Me too, so he found an employer that supported flexible working and he has worked part time and flexi ever since.

Yep, my cousin was down as contact three for ours, she would be called before any of our childrens actual parents!

I didn’t realise as dh and I were very much equal partners in every other way. But I ran a childcare business from home so a lot of the day to day house tasks fell to me. I had dd from previous marriage so a lot of the parenting fell to me. But dh would cook at a weekend and chip in with laundry/hoover etc so I never noticed. Then I had another dc, mat leave and part time work etc. It was when I got a full time job out of the house that I realised dh just didn’t want to do those jobs and my wfh was an excuse. We battled/I accepted it for years and the only thing that worked was matching his energy. Now in my forties I’ve stopped doing all the washing/hoovering etc. I do my share and if it doesn’t get done it doesn’t get done. But dh wants it doing so he will say things like “we need to do a wash “ and I will agree “we” do. Then when nothing happens he will put the wash on.

2 things...

children change the dynamic of a relationship and the natural work. I

physical build as plays a part of it… this is also demonstrated in our working society and stereotypes

Absolutely this.

A lot of men wear a progressive disguise when they think it costs them nothing (because they know most women are put off by obvious sexism).

It’s very easy to call yourself a feminist when you and your wife are not encumbered by childcare responsibilities, have lots of disposable cash and free time and sex.

Its a very different story when they have pressure at work and suddenly are asked to do pickups and drop offs.

I my experience everything was fine until kids then it’s who earns more and who has the most family friendly employer that kicks in and becomes normalised. I think stress reveals how genuinely equal things are emotionally but equally there’s a cold logic to what is happening structurally in society. And society and the workplace are not equal IME.

According to mumsnet standards, a good man earns very well, but has time to deal with the children and pull his weight with the housework without being controlling. He is empathetic, funny, attractive, good in bed and never does or says anything embarrassing. He never so much as glances at porn and cooks enthusiastically but not performatively. He also clears up the kitchen as he goes. He is basically a 50’s house wife who also holds down a high paid job. I think men would also love the same kind of qualities in a wife. Humans just aren’t like that though. They are all flawed.

My issue is the mental load. Which isn’t really a sexist thing. He does all the washing and cooking. I mow the lawn and do bins. We aren’t living in a traditional roles family. But I carry the whole of the mental load for the children

Men frequently make an effort to present themselves in a better way before you love them and get married.

If all the crap ones were up front about their true nature from the first date far fewer women would marry them.

Can you imagine what honest online dating profiles would look like?

”I am a lazy slob and would like a pseudo mum who I can shag after you make my dinner, clean the house and run all the life admin”

Nobody is going to swipe on that.

But surely the

I'm not so convinced that this is something men do to women and women play no role in it. DH, and I did shared parental leave, and men kept telling me they'd like to do but their partners wouldn't have it. I thought that was self-serving nonsense: until their partners kept telling me the same thing. Lots and lots of women were horrified that I would 'have to work' while he 'got to stay at home' and thought I was getting a very rough deal. There were also a lot of comments about how I could possibly trust him to do it properly.

Similarly throughout the years where ours were tiny we both worked four days a week, and lots of women told me it was such a shame that I had to work so much - it was clear that they thought him working full-time and me more part-time would have been a much better arrangement. My experience is that most women don't want an equal division of the domestic labour.

My personal experience is this.

I was brought up in a very sexist/misogynistic household. My mother firmly believed that women 'get themselves' raped; 'get themselves' pregnant and were wholly responsible for the breakdown of all relationships. I was brought up to be 'someone's wife' and wasn't allowed to do things that might make me unattractive to a a man - eg certain hobbies, going studying A levels/going to university and, when my dad had an affair, she shouted at me in the garden (so the neighbours would know it wasn't her fault) that I was the whore who drove my father into the arms of another woman.

She didn't think I was pretty enough to be loved so tried to diminish my personality in every way so that I'd be as small and inoffensive as possible in the hope that a man might at least 'settle for' me.

I was surrounded by that narrative until I left home at 18 to go to university... (she eventually decided I could go because someone told her I might meet my future husband there).

She took on the full burden of housework because she believed it was her duty. My dad did do stuff around the house but he wasn't allowed to wash up when we had guests because she didn't want people to think that he did anything.

She firmly believed men couldn't use washing machines or couldn't be trusted to do domestic chores so she would mock my dad whenever he tried. She also engaged with 'Men! They're useless!' narratives with her friends. When it was blatantly obvious they weren't and were just as capable as women of doing laundry, cooking and cleaning but the women wouldn't let them.

I declared at 15 that I wasn't ever getting married because I wasn't going to live like that. She and her friends laughed at me.

Anyway, I did eventually get married to a man who shared the load 50/50. The only disparity was because I ebf for 18 months. He had a higher paying job than me because we chose different careers but he was the main contact for school due to more flexibility in his work. His workplace were fine about it.

My partner now does at least 50% (I've also been told on MN that I'm lying, or I'm so blinded by inequality that I only think he does 50%+ when he doesn't).

I see it blamed on men changing, women's upbringing, but woe betide anyone who suggests a woman made a poor choice.

I've dated men who lived alone and so did everything themselves and were more than capable but they showed sexist attitudes in other areas and so I couldn't be sure they wouldn't regard those things as my job eventually. I've also dated men who where it's been obvious that they genuinely believed in sharing the load.

There are plenty of men who will be genuinely equal partners and want to be. There are also plenty of women who disbelieve that and so accept inequality in their relationships and just moan about it.

I've never wanted to be the one who carried the responsibility for domestic work, mental load etc and so I never have been.

I completely agree.

Maybe they are flawed, but the fundamental question is why bother marrying/cohabiting with someone if they don't bring at least some good qualities to the table?

There's no value legally hitching yourself to someone if they don't improve your life... you're better off going it alone.

It's learning where the line is between "imperfect but brings enough to the table to improve life" and "useless and an overall burden on your life" is. A huge amount of women assume that any man by default is better than no man.

Exactly. Absolutely DH is flawed, as am I, but it’s not ‘any port in a storm’ — he needs to make my life much better for there to be any point to being in a relationship with him. And yes, he does all the things @Neemie lists, bar housework, which neither of us do. If it isn’t done by the cleaner, it’s not done, other than cursory wipedowns. I don’t think that makes him at all ‘50s housewife’, I think that makes him someone who takes parenting and being a member of a family seriously, otherwise I wouldn’t be married to him or have a child either him.

To be fair ny DH did seek out a more flexible job, but it took him several years. He didnt get through interviews etc.

He was then made redundant and had to take any job for financial reasons, and then look for something more flexible again.

The point is both men and women might have intention to do x y z but external forces have an impact on how quickly they can achieve it. Its not just down to how sexist the man is. We dont live in a vacuum.

Agree 100%

There are also plenty of threads started on MN about a 'new boyfriend' or a 'new partner' where they live separately and there are children are involved, who is already showing signs of being a prick.

They ask, "Isn't this just what men are like?"

Some will reply that, yes, that's just what men are like. All of them. Every single one.

There are those who reply that, no, this is not what all men are like. This one's a dickhead, throw him back

Others will advise to proceed with caution.

They invariably agree that, yes, they will proceed with caution. Or ask what if they never meet anyone else? Or say they're desperate for a family.

Those women are going into that relationship with their eyes wide open. They are choosing that.

Another popular sexist remark… it is the woman that made a bad choice? You don’t know how sexist a man will be until you have gone through maternity leave.

And in any case why is the woman fault? People change, relationships change. Nothing to do with choosing well, you simply don’t have a crystal ball when it comes to relationships.

This is really important.

I didn't want children so I didn't ask about families specifically, but I always talked about feminism, equality and gender roles with the men I dated. Any sign that they held any views along the lines of "men should be/do this, women should be/do that" and they were ditched.

I'm like a stuck record on dating threads but it can't be said enough: the trouble is that a lot of women fetishise traditional masculine roles when dating. They want "providers" and "protectors" - what that means is men who get their self-worth and validate themselves through their ability to earn money and through their physical strength - not from sharing the domestic load, or being gentle and non-aggressive.

You don't really get to cherry-pick traditional gender roles when someone's core identity is based on them. They come as a package. And that package, down the line, means both husband and wife "knowing their place".

I do agree with this but I think a man who has been raised in a very “traditional” family environment is more likely to default to this in a family setup than one raised in a more progressive one.

A man whose mother was wholly focused on supporting and facilitating the lives of her husband and children is likely to have different expectations of his own partner than one whose mother worked outside the home.

Thats not to say men from traditional backgrounds can’t override this and build their own families in a different way.

But the “hard-wiring” in a traditional family predisposes men to a certain set of expectations.

I have lost count of how many times I have seen 'my male partner wants me to be a sahm' or words to that effect?

Have women lost the ability to speak ans think for themselves? Is womans only role in life caring for children yet womwn hide behind this till they are then expected to look after grandkids

You really have no way to know, I had a marriage that was authentically equalitarian, we both shared housechores 50/50, we both were equally good and proactive at making money, DIY, housechores, etc. We were friends, partners, team players. We enjoyed our time together but also had our own hobbies and interests for the many years we were married before DS came into the equation.

If somebody had told me that he was going to be such a shit parent and husband after DS was born I would have never believed them! Yet, DS arrived and suddenly it was my child, my chores, my stupid interests and my job was no longer as important as his… so we split, much to the surprise of all friends and family who saw us as the “ideal couple”.

He has refused seeing his son for more than a decade, didn’t pay the minimum child maintenance despite being a very high earner. Do I think all men are shite? Not at all, but I resent women blaming other women for their husbands’ failings.

Dogs don’t earn, they smell, they poo, they eat, they don’t do house work, they can’t be left alone, they bark, the have bad habits but people still get them despite the obvious drawbacks.

People aren’t always practical. They don’t want to be lonely and they also want children.They want to love and be loved.