To want to address parenting styles with my oldest friend

[BubbalaDetalla]

I have a friend who idolises her DS. Most of the time I admire her and think she is an amazing mum. And he is a great kid. Recently, however, I have sometimes found her approach with him quite damaging for a number of reasons. She is in my view excessively defensive of her DS to the detriment of other kids (and potentially her own DS) This recently caused an issue when her DS was being quite dominating with my (gentle and shy) DS and I intervened to separate them.
She wants to meet up in half term and I don't currently want to do this because I am uncomfortable with her parenting style. I feel like if her DS was overbearing with my DS she wouldn't intervene and would be pissed off if I did. And of course I won't put my DS in this situation.
I have known this friend for over 35 years. We have been incredibly close in the past and were a lifeline to each other during mat leave and various trials and tribulations of life. It is only since the boys turned 5, in the last year or so that this has become an issue.
My friend lost both of her parents very young and while she has dealt with this in a way I admire, and in many ways is admirably strong, I do think she has some.issues potentially related to this/abandonment issues that are born out in her parenting. I think she is quite unhappy and her DS is her primary source of price and joy. She cannot bear to tell her DS off, even when in my view she should
It's coming to the point where I love her and her DS in themselves but I don't like the dynamic of the four of us together.
My DH thinks I should not mention my views to my friend and let the relationship fade out. He has no qualms with burning bridges but I am loathe to let go of the friendship and am considering broaching the issue with her.
We have always spoken frankly in the past. Her friendship is really important to me - should I swallow her parenting style and keep our Ds's apart and not mention anything, or try to discuss this with her?
I think the reason it is difficult to discuss, beyond the fact that discussing opposing parenting styles is potentially disastrous and usually a no go area, is that she is very defended around this topic. She and her DH do not have the greatest relationship in part because she will not entertain any questions of her parenting style from him. Am I mad to want to broach this? Has anyone ever had a conversation like this that's gone well? We do have a few other mutual friends who have made comments /rolled eyes in the past regarding her indulgence of DS so I suspect I'm not the only one who views things this way. I feel like if it was me I'd want to know. But I know it won't be easy. Help!

My twin sister and I didn't speak for 15 years after she questioned my parenting.
Tread carefully if you still want her friendship.

Despite the early criticism, my kids have both turned out okay. As for my sister's, well I do feel she may be repenting at her leisure.

No good ever comes of it what response do you expect? “You’re right I’m a shit parent now how can I be more like you?”.

In my experience it doesn’t get better. They just coddle their now pre teen or teenager and create narcissistic, rude and entitled people who sometimes rampage over other people’s lives or sometimes even kill their own parents. Coddling is just as dangerous as neglect and abuse. Children need and deserve boundaries.

I agree that criticising her parenting will probably not go down well but it’s a shame so many mothers coddle their children these days. It’s actually very damaging to coddle, over protect and not give your children boundaries or rules. It creates entitled, unhappy people, narcissists, abusers, makes life difficult for other people etc.

Assuming she’s a first time parent, a lot of mums put their first time kids on a pedestal and think their kids can’t do any wrong. It fades out when school starts I find, when they have to loosen the reigns and control a little bit - perhaps even hear some of that feedback from a teacher.

I wouldn’t have this be discussion - it won’t end well. Who is to say your parenting is better? Just different perhaps? Your son will meet kids like this in life, your better teaching him how to handle them, than try to navigate changing other people’s parenting approaches.

Don't have any serious conversation that criticises her parenting!! Keep an eye on how they interact at all times and, when necessary, say 'Billy, it's Bobby's turn to play with that toy - you've had your turn' and calmly intervene. If you speak to her it will not only be the end of your friendship but you will have made her feel awful/a total failure - do you really want that?? If intervening becomes too tiresome then the time will come to say 'It's pretty exhausting always having to intervene between the boys, shall we meet just the 2 of us next week?' She may find your parenting style OTT and be posting on MN herself!

I agree with others, it won't go down well.
We were in the same situation in 2 ways; one boy's mum thought we my DS was intimidating her son and another friend's son was too much for mine. Kids do change as they grow but in our case the boys' mum used to be bullied at school and was hypersensitive. Physically my DS was bigger which I think was an issue as mentally her DS was far more bossy and vocal but she couldn't see it. I'd therefore caution that this isn't something from your own past that you are seeing that is jumping to conclusions. The boy that was being aggressive to my DS has ADHD which in hindsight was quite obvious even at 2. If you want the friendship to keep up you need to tread carefully, my friend who thought ds was "bullying" her kid used to say "don't stand so close!" at play or "please be very careful as DS is only LITTLE" continuously which I suspect gave her DS more complexes and fear. We don't see them any more for other reasons but her DS was never scared of my DS and often used to ask to come over. How does your DS feel?

It sounds like if she doesn't listen to her own husband about her parenting style she isn't going to listen to you.

I don't think you can discuss her parenting style in general. You could discuss specific incidents like 'I'd rather meet on our own, the last few times my son has been upset after the meet ups because (for example) he felt your son insisted on what they were going to play and he didn't get any turns choosing, I'm not sure anyone would be comfortable intervening so may be best to give them space' or similar.

It depends what her sons behaviour is actually like though. If it's something like the above, or cheating at games etc you might be able to manage it with some pre arranged activities or by joining in, redirecting etc. Or you might be able to meet in the park where they can both play on separate things if they want. If it's that he is actually nasty to your son and is winding him up or hurting him then I wouldn't want to put my child in that position.

What does he actually do to your son and does your son want to see him?

This is the second thread you’ve started about friends of yours in the last few days that you’ve never returned to.

What gives, OP?

Morning everybody, many thanks for all the responses on this. It’s always useful to get a big range of your views and you’ve made me really reflect and think about some of my blind spots too, which is really helpful. It’s especially helpful to hear from mums whose kids are older and great to have the reassurance that this all is all par for the course. Thank you.
To those asking about the type of behaviour, it’s things like hitting, snatching, always wanting to go first/ choose first etc. For example, my DS has a toy, other boy wants it and keeps saying he wants it. My boy gives it then other boy waves it in his face saying “haha I’ve got it and you haven’t”. My boy says “it’s ok, I don’t mind” but I can tell he’s sad. I can feel the eye rolls from the no nonsense mums on here but it isn’t very nice !! I should also emphasise that this isn’t all the time, the other boy is only 5 and still working it out. I understand that.
To those who have said my DS has to work this out for himself, I agree (it’s just hard, isn’t it, sometimes, to see them upset or overpowered) and to be honest, he is not always bothered by the other boy, often they really get on and it’s more my issue of not liking seeing him treated like that.
Having said all that, there are two issues really – the issue with the boys (which is as much about me getting used to letting go of the toddler years I suppose) and the general issue of how to broach general issues which touch on parenting with a friend and I love and value.
Part of the issue was not just the boys, but that I can see her acting quite dysfunctionally at times (bearing in mind she is truly an amazing mum and I know we’re all trying our best) . If it was me I would want a trusted friend who cared about me to maybe gently point it out (as she has on other issues in the past). It’s interesting to me that very few people have thought it was a good idea to raise it at all – it’s making me think on the one hand that I have unrealistic expectations of friendships, or that others perhaps don’t have the level of intimacy/trust in relationships that I have with this friend.
To give you all an update, we have since spoken about this, though not directly or in any kind of accusatory way. She has realised that she has some issues around scolding him in any way that run quite deep and is going to get some help with this. And from you lot I have learned a lot too, so thank you! Especially for the thoughtful and kind responses, but even the grumpy and judgey ones are useful haha.

?

? Is that not allowed? Not sure what your issue is

Ah good update OP - you proved me wrong - you must have great diplomacy skills!! Glad she was receptive to the feedback.

I have similar with a friend, she doesn't properly watch her son and he can be vicious with mine, even though they're "friends" - it's a bit toxic and I feel like the only parent.
I go with obvious adult only dates, I would never say anything about her parenting, literally nobody responds well to that and it'll cause a row. Just invite her to the cinema at 8pm to see a 15, or ask to go for cocktails, or a girly dinner or a spa day or basically anything you did before kids. It's great if your friends kids and your kids gel, but if they don't it shouldn't end your friendship, just socialise without the boys. You don't need to specifically say why, if it helps just say you've missed adult activities or adult only meet ups. That way there's zero criticism, zero phasing out/burning bridges and your son doesn't have to carry your friendship for you.