To want to address parenting styles with my oldest friend

[BubbalaDetalla]

I have a friend who idolises her DS. Most of the time I admire her and think she is an amazing mum. And he is a great kid. Recently, however, I have sometimes found her approach with him quite damaging for a number of reasons. She is in my view excessively defensive of her DS to the detriment of other kids (and potentially her own DS) This recently caused an issue when her DS was being quite dominating with my (gentle and shy) DS and I intervened to separate them.
She wants to meet up in half term and I don't currently want to do this because I am uncomfortable with her parenting style. I feel like if her DS was overbearing with my DS she wouldn't intervene and would be pissed off if I did. And of course I won't put my DS in this situation.
I have known this friend for over 35 years. We have been incredibly close in the past and were a lifeline to each other during mat leave and various trials and tribulations of life. It is only since the boys turned 5, in the last year or so that this has become an issue.
My friend lost both of her parents very young and while she has dealt with this in a way I admire, and in many ways is admirably strong, I do think she has some.issues potentially related to this/abandonment issues that are born out in her parenting. I think she is quite unhappy and her DS is her primary source of price and joy. She cannot bear to tell her DS off, even when in my view she should
It's coming to the point where I love her and her DS in themselves but I don't like the dynamic of the four of us together.
My DH thinks I should not mention my views to my friend and let the relationship fade out. He has no qualms with burning bridges but I am loathe to let go of the friendship and am considering broaching the issue with her.
We have always spoken frankly in the past. Her friendship is really important to me - should I swallow her parenting style and keep our Ds's apart and not mention anything, or try to discuss this with her?
I think the reason it is difficult to discuss, beyond the fact that discussing opposing parenting styles is potentially disastrous and usually a no go area, is that she is very defended around this topic. She and her DH do not have the greatest relationship in part because she will not entertain any questions of her parenting style from him. Am I mad to want to broach this? Has anyone ever had a conversation like this that's gone well? We do have a few other mutual friends who have made comments /rolled eyes in the past regarding her indulgence of DS so I suspect I'm not the only one who views things this way. I feel like if it was me I'd want to know. But I know it won't be easy. Help!

I've got no good advice because in my case we just arent good friends any more.

She's like an acquaintance and we are sort of polite strangers.
4 years ago I saw her 2-4 x per month... this year I haven't started all. i think i haven't seen her since before Christmas.

I dont know how a convo can go well.

your lifestyles (read: children) mean you are now fundamentally incompatible.

Stick to adults only stuff

You need to elaborate on 'quite dominating' with your DS and explain what he was doing.

You many also need to address YOUR parenting, it may possibly be that you need to teach your DS to stand up for himself a bit more.. a shy/gentle child will be a target for bullying/pushing around, and if you keep intervening rather than teach him how to sort those situations himself, he'll never learn, and he'll forever be a walkover/doormat.

My ExSIL was one of those parents.. intervening the moment her darling child looked unhappy, or slightly put out, demonising the other kids who were just playing normally. Making out a tiny scratch was the end of the world rather than 'oh dear, it's ok, nothing bad, keep playing' after a quick check & hug and brush off. Her daughter would cry if i so much as raised my voice at MY children, never mind her.

You may not be as extreme as her, but rather than demonise your friends parenting, take a look at your own, and see if you can change a few things, rather than thinking you're perfect and she needs pulling up.

As other people have said, meeting up without kids is the easiest option.

If you decide to say something, I wouldn't talk about her 'parenting style' as that will only get her back up. But you could maybe mention specific incidents - eg if he pushed your son/snatched toys off him etc and how that upset your son. To be honest though, even if she does step in, I'm not sure the dynamic with your kids will shift much in a short period of time.

I agree criticising her parenting directly won't go down well. Agree with others about either meeting without kids, or if you need to bring kids then just deal with any bad behaviour yourself. And keep the meet up relatively short.

If Fred is pushing George, you don't have to single Fred out directly, you can just do a firm but cheery "Oi, no pushing please, let's go and do x".

Sometimes I've actually said to my kids beforehand, "Listen, if Fred is naughty I'll tell you all to stop it as a group but really I mean Fred". That prevents the "but it wasn't me it was Fred!".

I'm never rude or mean to other people's kids but I'll definitely step in if they're being a little so-and-so and the parent isn't dealing with it.

That’s going to go down like a bucket full of cold sick.

criticising someone’s parenting never goes well.

It will go horribly. Just reading your post made me irritated on her behalf. The only conversation you need is one where you tell her you think its better to meet up without the boys for a while as they seem to be going through a not getting on stage, so how about the two of you go for drinks instead.

No of course you can’t tell your friend she isn’t parenting properly for goodness sake. You only see a snapshot of their day and you have no idea what the dynamic really is at home. You seem very sure that your approach is the correct one - thats a mistake. Just don’t meet them again if you don’t want to spend time with them.

If she asks you both over just tell her that you dont think her DS really likes your DS very much, that they don’t get on. Leave it that. Say you’ll meet up just the two of you.

How she raises her child isn't really any of your business. I can't imagine many people would take kindly to being pulled up on something like that, especially if as you say there are potentially deep seated issues at the root of it.

If you don't like the way her kid behaves around yours, address that behavior at the time ("Can you tell Billy to stop being so rough with Timmy?"). She'll either get the message or she won't.

@BubbalaDetalla You are not being very clear in your OP. Can you please give us an example of what you mean with friend not intervening. What exactly was her son doing? Hitting/kicking saying vile things/putting your ds down? Or was it that he was just more confident and wanted to decide what t9 play all the time? If the latter this would be excellent training for your ds to assert himself. If former she and her son def needs to be told that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. I would talk to all 4 of them, gently but firmly, stating that it's great to have fun and play but if there is any hitting/kicking or saying mean things to anyone I have to take DS and leave immediately because that is not how we treat friends. Once the rules laid out you will see if her ds will behave, if not then you will have to leave and not see your friend with children again until he's learnt how to behave.

This 100% .. I also can’t believe your husband is suggesting you ditch a 35 year friendship over parenting styles.. utterly bizarre

Coming out the other side of parenting (mine late teen) do not say anything. No good comes of it. You trash your friendship and she won’t listen anyway.

I would be breezy “the boys aren’t really getting on at the moment let’s just us meet up” if you value the friendship.

But then I am in a local friendship group where our kids have done all sorts to each others kids (up to and including one teens parents calling the police about a recalcitrant teen) yet we are still all great friends. The young adults all leaving home now off to start their own lives it’s all water under the bridge. We are all still friends.

This is a terrible idea. Obviously do not tell her she is a bad mum! Address behavioural issues in the moment: "Ian, let Mark have a go now please". Or see her without your kids.

Don't have "the conversation" about her parenting. Honestly, it's absolutely none of your business how she parents

Meet up one more time with the children. Intervene should your child be upset in some way. But intervene gently without apportioning obvious blame

After this, don't meet up with the children again for a couple of years. Just meet up with your friend. Tell her that your child finds 121 play dates a bit overwhelming right now

OP. Maybe five years into your parenting journey you’ve cracked it - you’re the uber parent, no mistakes - your kid will never cause any issues, will be a kind, philanthropic, empathetic geniuses with no bumps on the way.

Or maybe you’re like everyone else - getting some things right, making mistakes, doing your best - and at some point something. Will get tough, or your children will drive you crackers - and you’ll need your friends.

So - by all means comment on your friend’s parenting - if you want to lose a friend, and if you can take it when others reciprocate.

Or either see your friend without kids, or with kids (in the knowledge that you and your child definitely aren’t perfect either).

TLDR: get a grip.

Can you see her without your DS?

Meet up without the kids. Having children of an age that they are willing to play with the children of your adult friends is such a tiny window of time. Make excuses and see her separately before long your kids will be older and want to do their own thing and you won’t have thrown away a 35year friendship.

I'd tell her that the DC don't get on or let her react, then dump her, there is no talking to parents like that, there is many of them, who won't discipline their children.

I don’t think you should say anything about someone else’s parenting (unless you’re a childcare professional at work). It’s a very delicate subject!

You just have to improvise at the time and try to get across that all children matter, not just hers. I like what a PP said about saying something along the lines of “which one of us is going to intervene this time?” You could make it light-hearted like “I’ll get this one, you get the next one!”

They change quickly at that age, this is probably a phase like most things.

My ex and I had completely different parenting styles and it didn’t work well, my kids are older now and they know what they can and can’t do whilst with me and whilst with their dad. My husband and I have the exact same styles so our child has been brought up the same way my 2 have been whilst with us.
Ive Said this because it relates to friends too, I ended a friendship for unrelated reasons but I struggled massively when it came to our kids, because she would let them draw on my walls, push my kids, her youngest would coddle her and leave my daughter with no one to play with whilst our boys played etc. It was a horrible dynamic so I stopped hanging out with her with the kids before I eventually stopped hanging out with her altogether for other reasons.
But it is the same with my other close friends, we never include our kids. I’m a lot stricter than either of them. One of them I tell her kids off sometimes because we have that dynamic and we are on the school run together. But we don’t hang out with the kids too, the other friend we just don’t involve the kids. Both of them let their kids get away back chat, doing what they want, not eating what given and I’m not like that. We have rules that mine know and follow so it’s just easier to not have them together.

I think that’s your best option rather than trying to talk to her about how you feel regarding her parenting techniques.
you clearly don’t want to lose her as a friend so just hang out together without the boys.

One of them I tell her kids off sometimes because we have that dynamic and we are on the school run together.
You're seeing the kids for just a few minutes each day yet keep telling them off? That suggests you are wildly over reactive really, there's no need to create drama every day with kids and it'll undoubtedly spill over into their school behaviour. I can think of maybe two times in the whole of the past year that I've had to ask DS to stop doing something at pick- up and never in the morning. By us most of what you hear yelled by parents is the new traditional saying of "mind the poo!!", very few are provoking the kids unnecessarily.

Don’t meet up with the kids.

You have to accept other people’s parenting styles, any criticism of them cuts right to a person’s identity as a parent and will not go as expected. Nobody takes character comments assassination well no matter how lightly a person treads.

If you cannot comfortably be around her son with your son then don’t set yourselves up to fail. Tell her the boys seem to not be getting along as well as they were at this stage, we would be better meeting up separately.

Now they are five it will be easy to keep them apart. Your ds will have parties and activities. I’d do that for a year and then meet up with them both again. I wouldn’t talk to her about her parenting as it’s too contentious.

She and her DH do not have the greatest relationship in part because she will not entertain any questions of her parenting style from him.

If she won't hear it from the child's other parent, what on earth makes you think there's any chance she'd hear it from you?

And, like a PP suggested, you may hear something back from her you don't like - eg, a critique of YOUR parenting. Would you be open to that?

I would still meet up with her but immediately stop her son picking on yours. She can like it or lump it. I’d also arm your son with some phrases he can use to counteract her son’s behaviour.