To beg you for your advice on this

[Dailyncwympo]

I’ve name changed for this but am a regular poster (screaming at the Sistine, snapped and farted, cancel the cheque etc).

I’m at my wits end and need some kind of advice. My DD is 10 and has literally no friends, in school or out. She is desperately lonely and neither she nor I can figure out how she’s ended up being so universally unliked, if not disliked.

We think she’s ND (AuDHD) and are waiting on an assessment, same goes for me, so there might be something we’re missing. But:

• she’s clever, fun and funny
• she’s active and up for trying new things
• she’s never (that I’ve seen or heard — and I have asked school etc) cruel, mean or spiteful

Possible issues (my best guesses)

• she can be clingy — she longs for the fabled BEST FRIEND FOREVER
• she finds it tricky to understand/adapt when plans change
• shes quite precocious in some ways (very high reading age, wide vocabulary, can be a know it all/a bit ‘teach-y”)

She manages much better in adult company than with kids but she’s 10 and is gutted at having no friends.

I’ve tried arranging play dates but they always dwindle after one or two. We’ve joined clubs but they’ve never led to any real friendships just more of the same.

She’s had literally no play dates over the summer, and my messages about play dates to a couple of the mums of friendlier schoolmates have been ignored — to the point where I’m wondering if it’s me who’s the issue as much as her.

Not to drip feed but she goes to an expensive private school because her dad (who I’m not with) is loaded — I’m very clearly not loaded and stand out as such at the school gates.

Can anyone help? I’m open to any advice as I’m desperate for my genuinely lovely (flawed as we all are but very kind-hearted) girl to finally build some friendships.

My heart is broken for her, as her whole life has been like this, and I feel like I’ve completely failed her. She is desperately lonely 💔

Thank you for reading and for any advice x

What does 'teachy' mean in this context??

Hey OP - I'm AuDHD and so is my DD15. It's tough to make friends if you haven't yet found your tribe!

My DD was liked by everyone at school but didn't have any particular friends per se. We swapped to home education (for other reasons) and within the home education community she found people that she clicked with. She's now got a lovely group of friends who are very accepting of her differences (she's very anxious).

I'm not suggesting you suddenly home educate her! But I am saying that finding the right group of her peers could change everything overnight. I would say - that as a very big generalisation - private schools and children who attend aren't quite as willing to accept ND children who don't easily blend in. (Yes, I know there are exceptions for any private school parents who feel offended!)

A more diverse group may be beneficial for your DD. If you can't find that at school just yet because you're stuck there then I really would second finding clubs to attend.

What helped my DD was going to a club where there was a structured activity. Free play can be REALLY hard for ND children. My DD is arty so I signed her up to a small art club - two of the girls there also go to college so it's not exclusively for home ed. It's just a small class of four pupils and they chat as they do art projects, guided by a lovely tutor.

Think outside the box for clubs, don't just go for the usual Brownies, swimming club etc. You could even try joining your local home ed Facebook groups as often they have lists of local clubs that are running, and most are very happy to accept children who are at school as well as home-educated kids. If you're in the Gloucestershire region, pm me and I'll give you a list.

The other thing that helped my DD - and also my DS who is more severely autistic - was joining online communities. You do have to be careful as there are some right arses out there, but if you're careful, it can be a great way to meet friends and to feel less alone. Minecraft is often a good start if she's interested in that? It's really popular in the ND community.

The only other thing I would say is perhaps read up a bit on why screen time is valuable to children with executive functioning disorders - it plays a really important role so restricting it too heavily could easily have the opposite effect.

Sorry, this is a bit of a brain splurge but I didn't want to read and run. I'm sure she will get there in the end but I completely understand how heartbreaking it can be.

If she’s at an expensive private school she will certainly not be the only child who is “precocious” with a high reading age and wide vocabulary. Honestly that comment stuck out as a bit of a red flag because it sort of implies you think she’s “special” when she almost undoubtedly is not. If you have that attitude and it has rubbed off on her, then I can totally see why play dates would fizzle out and other parents will lose interest.

I’d also consider whether to ask her “loaded father” to pay for some sessions with a child therapist to focus on relationship building, etc. The problem is it will be tough for her as the friendships will mostly be set now and she’ll always be an outsider at first. Holiday clubs could also help.

She starts imparting knowledge (especially new stuff she’s just found out, often garnished with bits she’s inferred or made up!) on broadcast mode rather than having a 1:1 chat as equals sometimes.

Or she’ll sprinkle in bits to make it sound like she’s a bit of an expert on something — sometimes she is (precocious/gets on better with adults so picks up nuggets of info) but often she’s not!

Ive tried letting her know how off-putting this can be to other kids but it’s a hard-set habit that’s taking some shifting x

I’m so sorry you went through the same — it’s so painful when you see your child longing to fit in (in whatever way) and it just won’t happen.

Dad isn’t to be reasoned with, unfortunately — it’s a DA situation and he’s not been allowed to see her since last year. He agreed in court to allow me to move her, then sabotaged the move by delaying until it wasn’t feasible — DD was unsettled and upset by the delay and has now dug her heels in (understandably) and can’t cope with any more uncertainty 😔

Im hoping I can help her make a fresh start at high school, and I’ll definitely be looking into pastoral support and break time clubs 🤞

If it’s a brain splurge, it’s a really helpful one — thank you so much.

I’m running out of time to reply just now (got to get her to an appointment shortly) but really appreciate all the advice and will definitely give them a go x

Senior school can act as a bit of a reset too, so hopefully she will find Y7 onwards a little easier.

My suspected autism DS was very similar. We never pursued a diagnosis (as it would have caused him emotional turmoil) but it’s obvious to me that this is what held him back.

FWIW he has had a good group of friends since being 16. He’s 21 now. So the future will be better for your DD, even if it’s crappy now.

Will reply more fully when I get a moment later but just to say thank you for all the helpful comments xx

I think it's exactly this. Wealthy people tend to stay inside a bubble and prefer to socialise with people who they already know well or have other degrees of connections aside from their kids being at the same school. Being wealthy also means they have a big social circle and it's crazy how many families at any private school actually know each other privately in other ways. Very often the husbands all know each other from growing up together, work stuff, sports or the families are actually neighbours, distantly related, alumni from the same private schools/unis etc.

The problem isn't that they're actively looking down upon a parent who they deem poor, but they have too much choice from the people they already know. Another observation at private school is that there is a lot of transactional friendships. It sounds awful but it's just the truth. In every private school class, there are the famous or successful parents who tend to form the epicentre of social gatherings. People naturally gravitate towards them and it becomes hard to break into that group if you don't have anything to "offer". Just being a nice person unfortunately isn't enough, especially if the kids aren't best friends either.

This is why kids who are on the fringes of private school suffer a bit. It's not active snobbery but the fact they are invisible to the others. It's even harder with ND children of course. There are some hobbies that make it easier to find like-minded friends. The entire manga, anime and video game subculture is dominated by ND individuals and they are usually extremely welcoming. Not sure if that's something which might interest your daughter but you could encourage her in that direction. There are many distinct hobbies within the community like drawing comics, writing fanfiction or building cosplay costumes. Even in private schools, there's always a handful of kids who are into japanese/korean pop culture.

I would definitely try Brownies/Scouts/Guides (whichever suits their age). My daughter recently joined and it definitely feels like she has found her little tribe. I think it's a great leveller as they do so many different things so there is something that someone will be good at, but not everything, iyswim. It also has a good ethos around kindness and caring and is very inclusive. It's a good way to meet other parents too which might help with play dates in future.

Also worth pointing out that not every popular child is actually well liked/ kind/ clever etc.

@AdultHumanFemaleOne This is such an insightful comment. My kids sometimes mention the 'popular kids' and there are definitely a few referred to like that who no one actually seems to like. It's so weird. I suppose they mean 'cool' or something like that but it always strikes me as odd. Sorry to go off piste, OP, but it just shows the 'rules' around friendships, both for adults and children, aren't at all straightforward.

Could have written this about my eldest. She is ASD and went to a private school. She had people she hung out with at school but no one she saw outside of school really. Covid hit at an awful time and after Covid no friends really at all. But she made is ok. She understood that there are friends for different reasons/seasons and friends your own age aren’t always the best choice. She loved to read and crochet. And also loved water sports and climbing. We found friends in different places.
her sister went to a different private school, non selective and found her tribe (she’s also ASD), in school. Each kid is different.
is the plan to keep to private school for secondary? If so, have a look at the non selective ones if you can. They were much more well rounded in my opinion. Hope she finds her tribe soon, but they can be found out of school.

A lot of people have no idea of parenting an ND child on here OP, I understand exactly what you mean by precocious and teachy. It's very typical of kids with ASD.

OP this is the age where the emotional maturity of NT kids starts to pull away from ND kids who often come across as much younger. I really noticed this start to happen with DS (ASD) when he hit Yr 5/6.

IME at this age the NT kids start wanting to be cool and like 'in' things, they start getting interested in having boyfriends and girlfriends, are in Whatsapp groups and on tiktok, into make up and they start getting more superficial and cliquey. Add into this being at a private school where the parents have a lot of money to throw at the latest trend and it's even more acute. Someone who is very into facts and knowledge and who likes to talk at other kids and impart their knowledge in that typically autistic way may really struggle, DS did too.

This tends to be the age where ND kids start to notice that are different from the other kids and IME it will go one of two ways - either she'll start masking really hard and try to make herself like them or she'll start backing away from socialising and start becoming much more introverted. To be honest I don't know which is better or worse.

I really wouldn't assume things will get easier/better at secondary school though, as IME secondary school can be really, really hard for kids with ASD. The constantly changing classrooms/teachers/who you're sat next to make it particularly hard for ND kids to make friends. DS was saved by the library, that was his safe space where he spent most of his break times. He also did some lunch time clubs so definitely encourage those. Don't expect the school to be a lot of use though.

Sorry to not be more positive! Hopefully your dd will find a nice little group that does work for her, I have seen it happen before. I just want you to be prepared that Secondary school only gets bitchier and more cliquey and can really be hard for kids with ASD.

Oh I think this will be because she is coming across as a “ know it all “ or as very intense .
one of my children is learning disabled and also autistic.
they were quite popular when young as they were cheeky , fun and up to mischief.
As they got older the friends did dwindle but when they found their “ thing “ they became part of a wide and very accepting friendship group .
Currently as an adult has many friends

Really glad to hear life happier for your DC now they're older - am hoping that DD will find her tribe in time, too (and her self-confidence and comfort in being herself) x

Yes, there's always one who reads it as a stealth brag when it's anything but. I love DD dearly but I see many of my own personality traits in her and I know the difficulties I've had making friends throughout my life - I'd give a lot to spare her the same experience.

It's really interesting what you said about this age group. DD is flip-flopping between masking and fitting in with her classmates and their £35 lip balms and Yeezy trainers, and regressing comfortably at home with her lovies (with whom she has regular tea parties) whilst also discussing topics she's intellectually capable of grasping but perhaps not emotionally ready to handle. It's a LOT.

I'm not expecting secondary school to be some kind of utopia - I'm just hoping it won't be as bad as primary - that'd be something, at least.

Love to you and yours x

Not at all - it's a really good reminder that sometimes it's just some strange alchemy!

@User364431 It feels like you've hit the nail on the head re: the kinds of people who are at this school.

They have an awful lot in common, plus shared values, goals, interests. The local lawn tennis club is seen as very important; they know how important it is to ski in France, not Croatia; they know who the best nannies, cosmetic dentists and aestheticians are; and they're mostly members at the local country club and spa.

There's a (designer sportswear) uniform and everyone drives a silver Audi, a huge, black Range Rover or something fancier. I do stand out in my Vinted clothes and mucky 12-year-old Hyundai 😂

ND clubs have made an enormous difference to my AuDHD son. Have a look to see what is available locally e.g. disability sorts groups, riding for the disabled, autism youth clubs etc. These usually have waiting lists but tend to allow peolle awaiting assessment onto their lists too.

Hmmm, I think perhaps a bad fit with the school? Also at 10 I think children even girls are less able to form strong more mature relationship's. My son had lots of friends at that age but only by the age of 13 got one strong best friend. I think I was the same. Perhaps try to coach her to change her expectations? It's enough to be amicable with people. Also perhaps work with your ex on a better fitting secondary, I think there are some private ND girls only school if he is adamant that private is best.

100% - communication between ND people, without the involvement of neurotypical people, is often excellent, and not only problem free but enjoyable.

I would definitely get her involved in something like this asap.

I teach 10-year-old girls. Sadly, the best way for them to fit in, is to listen and agree far more than talking and expressing original opinions. The ones that get on with everyone are the easy-going, laugh at anything, join in with any game types.
It comes down to social intelligence which some children have in spades. When your Dd is talking, can she spot cues of disinterest from her peers or does she assume that because she likes the topic, everyone else must too? Does she talk at them or with them? Does she cause problems if the people she's playing with decide to abandon a particular game for another one? Does she report things to the teacher a lot?
The average child doesn't like these things and will avoid a child who does them.
Hopefully a child with similar interests and personality will join the class and she will then have her bff. Otherwise, she's probably (and it's such a shame) going to have to work on not 'being herself' when socialising. Mirroring other children's behaviours will get her some friends. Asking questions rather than speaking herself will lead to better relationships and giggling about silly things seems to be the ultimate way to ingratiate yourself to 10-year-old female society.
I don't know if this helps but it's what I've noticed after 16 years teaching this age group.

@Grammarninja That really does help, thank you. It's depressing but far better that 1) we know what we're dealing with and 2) we know it's not necessarily all just her.

Your points about social intelligence are spot-on, too - you could be describing DD. I'll carry on working on those things with her - thank you for taking the time to share xx

My sweet DGD best friend sounds just like your daughter. My DGD does not like super fashionable what she describes as silly girls so her pal who is sensible, a bit swotty like her, is just her cup of tea. They met when they both joined their school after moving from another town and were, for a bit, a little bit “outsiders” so don’t give up.