A pass is a pass? GCSE

[Rumplestiltz]

At GCSE, a 4 is a pass. When employers/apprenticeships/further and higher education institutes ask for a pass in maths and English, it’s a 4.

So why the fuss about “strong” passes, which is a 5? Why does the Government organise its data on the proportion who get “strong” passes in English and Maths? Bridget Phillipson saying it’s a travesty that white, working class boys aren’t getting “strong” passes in English and Maths and their life chances are affected as a result. It kind of undermines those who work very hard to get to that pass line of a 4 (teachers and students) to be told it’s not good enough.

I am sure I will be told it’s very easy to get a 4 etc etc, but for some kids in these subjects, it isn’t.

So my AIBU is - a pass is a pass.

The most exceptional pupils were the ones who used to get an A. Like I said, it was only the top handful who got that mark anyway.

I took my exams in the 1970's when they still had O'levels for brighter pupils, and CSE's for everyone else.

No, there is a difference between A/A* and 7-9. I teach them.

I was in the last year of O levels. They changed to gcses the year after.

Are you a maths teacher?

No it doesn't, at all, do you have any idea of the content of even the foundation GCSE papers? It means they got somewhere between 50-60%.

For context, for an honours degree the pass mark is 40%, 60% will get you a 2:1.

Stop trying to denigrate the achievements of children, some of whom worked extremely hard to get that 4.

This year you needed precisely 60% on Foundation tier maths to pass with Edexcel, the most popular maths exam board. To get that you would need to show a pretty good ability across 4.5 hrs of maths on fractions, percentages and ratios. As well as data handling, unit conversions, speed, graphs, shapes (area, volume). Also on the syllabus for Foundation would be algebra including quadratics and simultaneous equations, basic trigonometry, pressure and density.

There are a lot of people on MN who seem to run their lives successfully but who cannot do BODMAS or basic percentages.

A grade 4 is a pass according to the government and many employers. You may disagree whether the standard should be even higher, but a fact is a fact.

University level exams are considerably harder though, so not quite the same.

All the schools and colleges around me only ask for a 4. 5 passes at level 4 or above.

That's standard entry criteria.

Not for A Levels surely? You would massively struggle with the content if you had been working at a grade 4 level at GCSE.

If they do Level 2 courses then yes they might ask for grade 4s. Possibly for a Level 3 Btec, which is meant to be the same level as A Levels. But the local colleges near me want grade 5s for that.

Ours asks for 4s in maths and English language to be able to do any A levels and then 5s for the subject you actually want to do. I think that’s fairly normal.

That is totally untrue, and is why (as I said above) a ‘criterion referenced’ numeracy qualification would be a much more sensible alternative.

GCSEs are norm-referenced- a 4 will mean that that teen has scored higher than the lowest c.30% (a percentage set by examining boards in line with government guidance), across papers testing the full GCSE curriculum. It says nothing at all about their understanding of fractions ir percentages in particular.

A better statement, based on the realities if the current curriculum, might be ‘a child taking Y6 SATs who obtains less than the expected level has a weak understanding of fractions, and little if any of percentages’. So much extra is covered for GCSE that it is not possible to say in what areas if the curriculum they gained or lost their marks.

I'm not sure if you had intended to tag me...

But yes, you need 5 x 4 or above to study A levels at all the schools and colleges around me. Its standard. These are outstanding schools/sixth forms too.

Kids grow up so much in the 2 years between years 11 and 13. Its perfectly possible to get grade 4s and go on to get your first choice uni because you've done well in your A levels.

This might blow your mind but not everyone does Alevels fours are perfectly acceptable for most level three course, s.

This doesn’t overly surprise me.

The local 6th form attached to my sons school requires a minimum of 6 6’s to study any course with them.

I personally don’t think exams are even a true representative of knowledge or understanding of the subject, they show you are good at sitting an exam or on top form that day and carry too much of a baring on grades. My son was set to get a minimum of a distinction but likely a distinction* (9) on one of his exams, all of his coursework got a mix of these two grades, he got the top grade in his mocks, his teacher said he was literally born for this subject a complete natural. He has had a lot of quite significant health issues of late and on the day of his GCSE exam was not coping well at all, he was removed from the exam less than halfway through and taken to first aid and I was called to see if he could go home. He only just scraped a pass (4) even with special consideration because despite the fact all his work & mocks are outstanding in this subject they base the grade solely on how you did on the day and the maximum boost special consideration can give is 2%. Both him and his teacher were absolutely gutted, thats a drop of 5 grade levels due to having one bad day. Sadly as it’s not a core subject (english / maths) so there is no resit option. I think its a disgrace he could be marked so low when its clear that on a normal day he is working way beyond this level.

My son’s course of choice was for the same subject as above (at Level 3 T-Level) for which he had a provisional offer at the local college and required 5 5’s to include English, Maths & Science. Unfortunately he didn’t make the English grade so even if he had achieved the 9 in the correlating subject at school showing he excels in the subject, he wouldn’t have been accepted onto the course because of the English grade which seems madness, he has had to choose an alternative course.

I never passed maths, I’ve tried a few times. Last year work paid for me to try again. I thought I was doing well and had gained a decent understanding of the topics but the way questions were worded often threw me as it wasn’t always clear to me what they were asking for. The exam is now digital. On the day many of the questions carrying the highest marks were things like graphs, I had to skip them all because I couldn’t work out how to use the digital drawing tools that did not work the same as on the practice exam. As a result I failed again I wouldn’t say my basic maths is bad. 2 years ago I completed an ‘access’ qualification, one of the units I had to pass was maths related & had to prove I can accurately calculate drug dosages etc. I can’t take the full qualification the the access course gives me access to because I don’t have a level 2 maths qualification even though I had to prove I could do the maths on the access course!

Systems fucked if you ask me!!!

Our local school 6th for want minimum of 6s to study A levels

I'm sure there are differences around the country but judging by our results the criteria doesn't affect the A level outcome.

@Jarstasticdefinitely can take A levels with 4s which are passes

Photo here showing 6th form entry requirements

My mind is actually blown at the regional differences. Around here you need 7s or 6s in subjects to do them at A level.

If that had been the entry criteria for me I would not have done my A-levels which I passed and used to get into a decent uni and I’m now a teacher. Seems mad the difference between counties. There should be a national standard? Dd needed 7 for maths, I think 6 in maths for economics or statistics, she considered chemistry which I think required a 7 in science, but 5 at 4 for arts and humanities, thank goodness because that’s what DS is on track for and I’m confident that he will mature a lot during 6th form, he’ll only be 15 when taking GCSEs.

My eldest is just starting year 8 so it’s not an immediate panic but it is definitely a simmering pressure! I’m sure there are options at colleges though if my kids don’t meet the requirements for the sixth forms.

my DD did the maths foundation paper, she got a 5, and when i looked at the grade boundaries/full marks, you need 188/240 to achieve a 5 which was the highest grade achievable.

You know what you needed for a 5 on the Higher paper? 96/240

Yes obviously but PP was saying that a 16 year old passing with a 4 in GCSE would have a very poor understanding of the basics. That's not true, but my point was that the lowest pass at GCSE requires the student to get the same percentage on their exam papers that would get you a 2:1 at degree level. Which is obviously crazy.

You'd never suggest that a student getting a 2:1 in their degree has barely scraped through and didn't even understand the basics of their subject, yet PP are saying that about children getting the same proportion of their questions right in a GCSE. 60% on 3 maths papers does not equate to a poor understanding of the subject.

There are links on the thread showing 6th forms which allow students to take A levels with 4 GCSE grade 4s. The criteria at your local colleges isn't a national one.

In my town it ranges between different 6th forms: 7 at grade 4, 5 at grade 5, a complicated (possibly made up in house) formula of getting over 63 by timesing your maths and English grades by 2 then adding your next best 5 grades, up to requiring 9 grade 6s with a 7 in the subjects you take for A level.

Plenty of children who get a 4 at GCSE while being expected to juggle 9 other subjects will flourish at A level, where they can concentrate on the 3 subjects they're interested in. Others will flourish once they mature more betwewn 16 and 18, others once they have the increased freedom to self direct which 6th form offers. It's not as simple as 4s= too dim for A level content.

Like I said upthread, if we were that tight with our 6th form criteria, we wouldn't have a 6th form!
6th forms don't only offer A Levels. A lot of our kids do a combination of btec and A level. Doesn't appear to affect their university choices in the slightest. Some people on here really can't see out of their nice little privileged bubbles.