Thread 16: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film?

[DisappointedReader]

The Observer's original exposé: The real Salt Path: how a blockbuster book and film were ...

The 14 Observer items currently available on their online 'The real Salt Path' page: The real Salt Path | The Observer

More from The Observer:
‘Hope is extinguished’: CBD patients respond to Salt Path...
The real Salt Path | The Observer (The Slow Newscast)
I will link to two more Observer videos in the first post of this thread.

The Observer YouTube Channel: The Observer UK - YouTube

Raynor Winn/Sally Walker's statement: Raynor Winn

Thread One ^www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5368194-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?^

Threads 2-11: Links all in the OP of Thread 12

Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5384574-thread-12-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386458-thread-13-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5388981-thread-14-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

New posters joining us in the genuine spirit of our civil discourse welcome. It would be helpful to get the background from at least some of the Observer items above before posting. There are currently a number of interesting items on The Observer website and linked to above.

To all - Please be extremely cautious when it comes to naming or implicating people and addresses not in the public eye or with no direct connection to the story, and around the understandable health speculations, especially where details are unclear or still emerging. Remember, even Hollywood rabbits attract the odd flea. Please do not engage with visitors who seem to have their own agenda and seek to derail. Avoid @'ing and quoting them as - from experience - this will only encourage them back to the threads. We have done amazingly well together for fifteen very interesting, very serious and very silly threads so far. I can't be here as much as I'd like so all help with keeping our discussion walking along in our usual reasonable and respectful fashion is very welcome.

Yes, it really is Thread 16.

Keep to the path. No saltiness. May the fudge be with you.

A colleagues husband was a printer at the works where the Harry Potter books were produced. Everyone searched thoroughly daily after work. I don't imagine they'd go for such lengths with this but doubt they want it leaked in any form. Agree though, would love a scan of it, especially to learn how Timmoth had apparently deteriorated (before doing the publicity for the film with no further long walks in between)

I suppose they could just release OWH as an e book only. Bit low key, soft release and see how it goes. If there's no backlash, the paperbacks could go then.

Of course we haven't heard from AH, she might object mightily to the Walkers and their behaviour, or she might have sold her designs for covers to PRH and not have any other connection than that. After all, her covers don't imply any kind of approval of how the Walkers have behaved and it's hard enough for artists to make a living as it is, so getting a cover design is a bit of a coup.

Ooh that's Clays at Bungay, they print TSP and sequels as well. They do tours, perhaps a Mumsnet undercover opportunity?

That's the one! Didn't know they'd done the Salray oeuvre. I can provide a fairly local meeting place for our crack commando team but feel I'd still hold people back (and the bandaging is really obvious) but will have fudge and cider.

You go in, bandaged, in a wheelchair, looking impossibly frail but indomitable, keep all attention firmly on you (stage a ladylike faint and express a need for a glass of water if necessary, or break into song), while the commandos discreetly raid the place and hide stray print copies of OWH under your chair? How could it fail?

Aww really wish we could meet. I feel a little bond with you lot..I sort of don't want the threads to end now.

Count me in for a Bungay foray!

Am just over from Vinted. On Saturday there were 192 Raynor Winn listings. My favourite being all three books for the tiny sum of £1.50.

i just checked again and there are now 225 Raynor Winn listings. The three books for £1.50 are still unsold which tells me no one is buying her books on Vinted as you would expect that to be the first listing to sell.

Round of applause for that username, @onlyinitforthefudge 😂

Count me in for the undercover mission btw. Bit of a trek over to the east coast but I'll give it a go.

Simon A was on Guy Garvey's Finest Hour on Sunday. I instantly thought of this thread! Poor bloke, forever linked to the WWs through no fault of his own.

I used to work at 80 Strand in a sister company of Penguin, way before they joined up with Random House. I used to venture up from the bowels of the building to Penguin's pulp bookshelf every now and again, some good finds to be had. If they still have a pulp shelf I'd be combing it every day!

Have been reading through to catch up. Thanks for the 'rounding up' that has been going on @crossedlines Thanks to @Freshsocks for acknowledging some of the specific contributions.

There are legitimate grounds for raising enquiries with the institutions promoting, or who have promoted, Raynor Winn.

Institutions have further knowledge and resources beyond that which we are able to access.

To raise a question with the RSL Christopher Bland prize - is just a small form to submit.

Facts raising legitimate queries re: How Not to Dal dy Dir:

1. The best-selling author of TSP transposed her mother's maiden name with her maiden name to form - Raynor Winn. She is the direct descendant of Thomas Winn - Wyn-Thomas.
2. Although a different genre, and we only have a small extract, there are echoes of TSP in HNTDDD - the protagonist's described experience, the dead sheep.
3. Raynor Winn's own acknowledgement in her statement: In desperation, we briefly tried running a book-based house raffle like others had done, but quickly realised it was a mistake as it clearly wasn’t going to work. We cancelled it and refunded the few participants.
4. The author's much-publicised husband, Timothy Walker, was the director of the publisher's Gangani. Sally was a shareholder.

Contact - Royal Society of Literature

I'm not sure that they'd take much notice of this though. SW can deny deny deny (we know she does this already) and without concrete and absolute proof that HNTDDD was written entirely by her (such as finding the original manuscript on her computer) then purely to save face they'd likely take her word for it being written by - I dunno, a distant cousin, even Tim himself.

If SW has any sense she's deleted all evidence from her Cloud and all devices. The onus would then be on the CB prize awarders to PROVE that she had previously written a published book - and that would be almost impossible. So she will get away with it and the significant prize money.

… unless an actual copy of HNTDDD comes to light, and there are more than passing resemblances between the two. Maybe some scenes / sections re-used in TSP?

It’s not just about whether there’s cast iron proof about HNTDDD though is it. It’s the fact of the public raising the issue and making it clear there’s at the very least grounds for reasonable doubt over whether SW was eligible for that prize.

ditto with questioning the institutions which have promoted her and helped her on her way to getting millions of pounds on the back of lies. Even if she still gets to keep that award and her millions, it’s highlighting how disgusting her behaviour has been.

There is never any harm in raising a query.

If I am served an inedible meal - I tell the waiter: "This is too salty, I can't eat It". I don't say can you hand over the cctv from the kitchen to prove the chef tipped too much salt in;

Hopefully then, someone on the next table will say: "Oh yes, I've found mine too salty, as well".

The alternative is doing nothing.

Whether there are any new articles or not, I dont think the reading public will forget ...I can't see how SW can even publish again unless under another name...TSP was proven (to whatever extent) to have a number of events that were just fiction yet presented itself as a memoir. Even if future books follow the truth more closely, will they be shelved in 'fiction' or 'non-fiction' in bookshops...either would raise eyebrows.

But you only have to listen to a group of people - many of whom will say that they 'don't care' about the backstory of TSP, and others still don't know anything about it. They've heard that there's some rumpus but it doesn't affect them and the books are still being sold - so it can't be that bad, can it?

I had heard about the Frey book 'A Million Little Pieces' being largely an invention - almost nobody else of my acquaintance knows anything about it (I had a particular reason for my interest). But because it was American and published in America, a lot of the controversy slid off the British reading public, and I fear that TSP might continue to be popular among the 'non reading reading public' who will never take an interest in historic questions that were raised.

I will follow this up@TheBrandyPath even if it doesn't do any good it demonstrates to the award givers that there is public feeling that the award should not have been received by Salray and why we think that. I know there is little chance they can prove it @Vroomfondleswaistcoat I have tried looking into the process, if the award givers wanted to revoke the prize they would need to discover that Salray was already published by Gangani, even though the ISBN can be registered in a pen name by the publisher, the publisher has to have the authors real name.

A publisher can be taken to court and compelled to reveal the name, even if they have ceased trading, but it would likely cost more than the awards they have to give, they could only try to get the money back. If it was a liable case and substantial damages could be claimed that far outweigh the costs, then they would probably take action.

But I agree again @Vroomfondleswaistcoat even if faced by legal action they would as you say probably claim all paperwork is lost, they can't remember exactly who the author was, but somewhere there will be a legal document relating to the ISBN but it won't be possible to get that information without legal action and we know that Raymoth would not be cooperative.

But we can still demonstrate that we are unhappy.

Thank you for your careful looking into this.

I think we should put the ball into the court of the institutions. It is for the benefit of other authors, who have missed out, and the reading public.

The Penguin CEO, Tom Weldon, complained to a newspaper that said they were changing the content of modern classics. He pointed out that it was because there was a racist word. Fair enough. I wish that he would take the same ethical stance on behalf of the victims of the TSP controversy.

The onus should be on these authorities to review an award to a much-compromised author.

Absolutely this. The kind of reader who most liked TSP, bluntly, is not a particularly discriminating or habitual reader. I’m not being snide or dismissive here (there are fields I’m just as vague about!), just trying to describe the type of reader who will read a bestseller because they see it advertised a lot, someone ‘told them it was good’, or someone gave it to them, and who will often struggle to remember the title or author’s name shortly after reading, even if they enjoyed it. That type of reader may have been vaguely aware of some type of controversy, but will not have retained details, if they were ever aware of them in the first place, and is likely to just see the AH cover on a bookshop table, recognise the brand, and buy a copy.

(Come to think of it, I think publishing OWH, or any subsequent book by ‘Raynor’s Winn’, without the distinctive AH cover would do far more likely damage to the brand than CH’s best journalistic efforts…)

I imagine that the RSL would need far more concrete proof that HNTDDD was by ‘Raynor’s Winn’ before acting to strip her of the CB prize. SA is currently one of its VPs, so I can’t imagine its unaware of the situation, but it’s a tiny team actually working there, so no one will be up for detective work to try to track down copies and prove RW was ineligible.

I worry slightly about the length of time that has elapsed since RW 'won' the CB prize. Six years have elapsed since she won and, while I would LOVE to see her stripped of the prize, made to pay it back and the prize given to one of the runners up, I simply don't think it will happen.

Partly because nobody raised any issues until now - so the book stood as a first book for so long, partly because repaying prize money would be almost impossible to enforce and also because of the precedent it might set for other book awards. Not that close examination of past awards would necessarily be a bad thing, but they might not want to open that particular Pandora's Box.

So I fear that the best that could be hoped for would be her name being removed from the list of historic prize winners, and, in effect, the award starting in 2020 with Michele Kirsch. She would have 'got away with it' by some lights, but any other action, I think, would be too hard to enforce.

And she'd probably sue them anyway.

SW & PRH (if aware of the previous book) are guilty of fraud. The proper description of the offence is obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception.

@PrettyDamnCosmic True. However I fear that SW (and PRH might well not be implicated as she will have signed a form to say that TSP was her first book) will invoke that time honoured clause of 'Prove It'.

I guess only SW knows if she was truly eligible for that award. If she was not eligible it will be enough for her to have it on her conscience.

Only if it can be proven that HNTDDD is by Sally Walker, and was actually published (rather than just promoted). If no print copies exist, and no one has come forward with an e-book in response to CH’s queries, it would be difficult to prove. No one has the power to impound SW’s old laptops.

I think we are overdue a review of this by the powers-that-be. It is important for authors as well as readers.

When I saw that this year's winner was a woman with a non-fiction memoir, published by Penguin - I did not feel any confidence. This is not fair on that author and why I wish to do a little something.

Large institutions are concerned by complaints. Everyone knows it is always just the tip of the iceberg.