Thread 16: To feel disappointed after reading this in The Observer about the author and her husband from The Salt Path book and film?

[DisappointedReader]

The Observer's original exposé: The real Salt Path: how a blockbuster book and film were ...

The 14 Observer items currently available on their online 'The real Salt Path' page: The real Salt Path | The Observer

More from The Observer:
‘Hope is extinguished’: CBD patients respond to Salt Path...
The real Salt Path | The Observer (The Slow Newscast)
I will link to two more Observer videos in the first post of this thread.

The Observer YouTube Channel: The Observer UK - YouTube

Raynor Winn/Sally Walker's statement: Raynor Winn

Thread One ^www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5368194-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?^

Threads 2-11: Links all in the OP of Thread 12

Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5384574-thread-12-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5386458-thread-13-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5388981-thread-14-to-feel-disappointed-after-reading-this-in-the-observer-about-the-author-and-her-husband-from-the-salt-path-book-and-film?

New posters joining us in the genuine spirit of our civil discourse welcome. It would be helpful to get the background from at least some of the Observer items above before posting. There are currently a number of interesting items on The Observer website and linked to above.

To all - Please be extremely cautious when it comes to naming or implicating people and addresses not in the public eye or with no direct connection to the story, and around the understandable health speculations, especially where details are unclear or still emerging. Remember, even Hollywood rabbits attract the odd flea. Please do not engage with visitors who seem to have their own agenda and seek to derail. Avoid @'ing and quoting them as - from experience - this will only encourage them back to the threads. We have done amazingly well together for fifteen very interesting, very serious and very silly threads so far. I can't be here as much as I'd like so all help with keeping our discussion walking along in our usual reasonable and respectful fashion is very welcome.

Yes, it really is Thread 16.

Keep to the path. No saltiness. May the fudge be with you.

I think the reason the whole Raymoth debacle has got all of us so upset are as @InterestingRead says health claims made about CBD, the diagnosis that hadn't happened, the benefits of walking on Moths health and the reinforcement of these falsehoods in interviews and promotional events. As @Poltroon says we don't know legally how that stands, morally we do, and as @Cornishwafer and@toooom pointed out doubling down on the lies throughout.

@SimoArmo has reiterated we know the timeline for diagnosis is two years later, so we cannot excuse Salray for what she has written, she might well have felt all the terrible emotions and had thoughts of Moth dying, but that would not have been until 2015. I suspect as everyone else that the real story would not have been as written, @Cornishwafer reminded me of some of the unbelievable things written, which all helped to make it a best seller.

And as @Vroomfondleswaistcoat and @TheBrandyPath have both pointed out the publishers should perhaps be coming under more pressure over this publication and what is going to happen to book four. As @crossedlines said the Raymoth reputation is in tatters at the moment, I just hope people can see through them and they will disappear, I can't see how they can appear at public events.

I too am nosey like @crossedlines I would really like to know what those people who are keeping quiet are really thinking, but it could muddy the waters, even if we find Dave and Julie we can't make them talk :) I understand @AgitatedGoose wondering if all has been revealed but I believe like @DisappointedReader that there will be more to come out in time, but what that will be who knows, in the meantime I agree@Aussiebornandbred I don't think they are getting a lot of adulation at the moment.

I am horrified @DisappointedReader by the thought of them running wellness retreats.

I also think that there's no point in articles rehashing what's already known - it would just be raking over old ground. But I DO think there's a percentage in keeping the whole debacle in the public eye, because I worry that the WWs will just wait for the fuss to die down and re emerge into the public eye, albeit in a lower profile capacity. They can employ their usual technique of 'handwavium' about all the stories - after all a few vague statements like 'there's two sides to every story' and 'you haven't heard all the ins and outs, things didn't happen as they were presented' etc etc. Which, if the fuss has died down and most people have forgotten what it was all about, they might get away with.

@Freshsocks I am horrified by the thought of them running wellness retreats.

I doubt very much that they can or will try to go ahead with them now.

I suspect that the Winter timing of the fourth book OWH and the Autumn release date was to raise their profile further to get more takers and free them up for the residential wellness retreats in the Spring. I think the retreats were their next great reveal and addition to TSP industry.

I don't think they could run the risk of any of the participants being journalists or angry genuine CBD sufferers or their loved ones.

I think people are still interested, particularly the reading public, genuine sufferers of degenerative neurological conditions and their loved ones, writers, the residents and small business people of Wales and Cornwall, or just people who strongly object to grifters who make money and obtain advantage by preying on people. We've all been here as a very varied community for eight weeks now. I'm still getting plenty of notifications from our earlier threads suggesting new interested readers. I'm still seeing new comments on the Observer's videos and so on - comments are varied but definitely mainly in favour of the exposés and against the WalkerWinnWyns. Chloe will still be interested after all her work so far and - fortunately or unfortunately - the likes of the Daily Mail will be too. I think the exposure of the large embezzlement and serious illness with imminent terminal prognosis claims are so serious that they won't be forgotten. Some of the dust will settle, but not that.

I'm glad @DisappointedReader that the wellness retreats are unlikely, it would have been the next logical step for them, they could have surrounded themselves with sychophants, new age healers and made lots of money promoting false hope and health falsehoods, I agree with@Vroomfondleswaistcoat if this was just a case of elaboration I would not be so concerned, especially if it wasn't something important. But this author has gone down the path of medical miracle health claims, that have given false hope and caused distress to people with and caring for those with serious illness.

We are on the brink of a time when truth can be lost, all the evidence collected through these threads, photographs, writings and videos, all of these things will be faked, no one will know what is truth anymore. I want like @Vroomfondleswaistcoat for this story to stay in the public view, not to just slip away, I hadn't thought the wellness retreat idea through @DisappointedReader as you say, they could not run the risk of upset people booking onto a retreat. I'm just so concerned that they don't hurt anyone else, physically or emotionally.

There has been a lot of past discussion about Moths part in the whole deception, I can't see that he isn't fully involved in all of it. He may not have known about the embezzlement at the time, and I can go with the theory that Salray fed the stolen money into the household and it wasn't questioned.

Maybe Moth didn't explicitly ask for more than could be afforded and maybe Salray wanted to provide for fear of losing him. What we do know is that he helped her secure the loan from his relative. From that point on he is complicit in all of the lies, the homeless portrayal claim (which is an insult to those genuinely homeless) the health diagnosis timeline (he knew he didn't get a diagnosis until 2015) and the walk itself, the timings and the claims of symptom reversal.

I feel sorry for Tim being ill, but I cannot understand him allowing his health condition to be exploited in the way that it has, other than his not caring about the impact on anyone else. He must just be focused on the money, if he believes his life is going to be seriously shortened he could be justifying it to himself as making his family financially secure.

I don't see the financial security of two people is justified by the pain and suffering of many, how the publisher or anyone else involved with them can support this portrayal they have created, in the full knowledge that it will continue to make people suffer in the multitude. They should get their priorities right, their support and sympathy should be with those damaged by these people.

I really wish I had @DisappointedReader 's faith in the public. Unfortunately I think the short term memory of the general public is such that many people will have forgotten the worst excesses of the nature of SWs deception in a few years. Those who were harmed by it all (CBD sufferers or anyone with a health problem that they tried to cure by 'walking it off') or anyone who has a highly developed sense of moral indignation on behalf of the Hemings will never forget the lies and deception and I don't think 'Raynor Winn' will ever be published again.

However as SW seemingly has a record of changing her name, I wouldn't rule out her bringing out more books but with a much lower profile and a new name. Only authors of very highly publicised books ever have to appear in public, and they are always given the option of not doing so (many authors are cripplingly shy) so she could well get away with a future career in authoring. And if PRH think that her writing will make them money, they will happily publish her and just keep her identity quiet.

Its not impossible that the next news will be that Salray is taking legal action against the Observer ....I can't see on what grounds, but given it seems she seems by nature quite a bitter, entitled person she might be stubborn enough to try.

I doubt it to do so will just open up a lot more evidence e.g. about the court case and Cooper deal, Moth's actual health back in 2013 etc.etc.

Maybe we need some don't go down the slippery slope tee shirts :) I did have a look at the CEO of penguin he described himself as a gambler, at the moment Raymoth must be perceived as a good bet financially, if that continues, then as @Vroomfondleswaistcoat speculates a name change could lead to further publications. My mum always says that, there are no brownie points for being good in life and terrible things happen to good people and rogues often profit.

We can take more direct action individually, emailing the publisher as I think @Fandango52 suggested (sorry if it was @TheBrandyPath ) we could also follow up the question of the first book award, I did ask a while ago if anyone with publishing experience knows if a publisher has to give the true name of an author if a prize has been falsely obtained.

In the case of Gangani publishing, the authors true name is only known by the publisher, which is Tim Walker, can Gangani publishing be compelled to reveal the name? (I know the company doesn't exist anymore) but Timothy Walker does.

If the publisher doesn't have to, is it then the case that we can all set up as publishers, write a book under a false name and nobody can ever find out who we are, allowing us to claim we have never been published for the purpose of collecting thousands of pounds falsely, writing whatever falsehoods we like, with no worries of any come back.

As far as I am aware with the awards thing, the publishers would have to submit SWs real name as well as her pen name, but as HNTDDD was written under another name, and self published, SW would probably just deny all knowledge of it or at least of having written it. Therefore, as far as PRH are aware, TSP IS her first book. Only those who were intimately connected with HNTDDD would know who actually wrote it.

She must have signed something when TSP was entered for the first book award to state that she hadn't published anything else. Presumably it would be too hard to actually state who really wrote HNTDDD, they could obfuscate and pretend that the book was submitted by some obscure person with whom they have since lost all contact. It would be almost impossible to get to the bottom of it.

Perhaps further evidence will come out but even if it doesn’t the impact on the Walkers is rightly significant:

On the literary / festival circuit they are effectively cancelled - appearing at live events would invite the wrong questions.

On the charity circuit they are cancelled - charities can’t associate with embezzlers.

On a day to day basis they are back to living like they did in Wales ie wondering every time they go to the village who they will see and how they will be received.

Their royalties revenue stream has been reduced. Maybe the 4th book will get published but with what publicity? (Did the film ever get its’ US distribution which would bring in new readers?). Without the oxygen of publicity sales of the published books will peter out.

Their opportunity to branch out into wellness retreats or other money making ventures has been curtailed.

I imagine they have had some difficult interactions with local friends, Dave and Julie and possibly their children. Not forgetting her agent and publisher who may not have known about the embezzlement and any future medical conversations with Tim’s doctors could also be more awkward now he has been unmasked as Moth Winn and exposed as telling people he had two months to live.

It’s a lot to bear.

I would like the publishers to come under fire, too, and be forced to admit their mistakes/greed-over-sense/shoddy oversight, and how that has contributed to and allowed the harm done.
I know someone has said they're contacting Trading Standards for ? 'false advertising', and I'm all for each one of us doing it, but unless thousands of people (or more) do, what will/can they do?

Penguin doubling down on their "no mistakes were made by us" narrative is so different from the USA Penguin publisher, who took some responsibility and stopped promoting/distributing that other truly fictional book mentioned a while back.

I wish there were some legal, ie enforceable way of making PRH do the same. AND introduce some kind of lasting procedures to stop this happening again.

I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done legally. I did wonder if those mentioned in the book, eg that Australian couple, or the café owner (where there is only one cafe in that place, so is still identifiable even if unnamed), could sue for libel but I wasn't sure there was enough harm for them to meet the thresholds.

If only we, as readers, could sue PRH for the book product not being AS DESCRIBED (that's a consumer rights term isn't it). Then they might sue SW for falsely signing a statement about the truthfulness of her tales.

I agree with this. And to top it off, not a single copy of the book seems to exist.

I just hope publishers can never be prosecuted for books not being 'as described' otherwise my publisher is going to come under fire by all those whose sides remain unsplit after reading my books...

Interestingly I've been listening to an interview with Dr David Wilson, where he talks about someone called 'Paul Harrison' who claimed to have written with DW (who did write with someone else of a similar name) and claimed to have been an offender profiler and got on loads of book tours etc, while being a total fraud. But the fact he got to do lots of talks and a high publicity profile while having absolutely no credentials does not speak well of the literary circuit.

I believe they do exist but none are currently available to buy.

@Vroomfondleswaistcoat Unfortunately I think the short term memory of the general public is such that many people will have forgotten the worst excesses of the nature of SWs deception in a few years.

I think you are right. I hope though that the press and those with longer memories than average will pop back up if needs be with a timely reminder.

Lookalikes

With apologies to Private Eye

A friend is reading TSP knowing the WalkerWinnWynns are con merchants but she thinks SalRay is a good writer. I was surprised at this but think it's because of the loveliness of Devon and Cornwall which so many have visited and loved. The scenery is in some ways one of the main characters of the book. She also likes the descriptions of the people who the WWs meet along the way.

Each to their own I suppose. I found the writing stodgy and the descriptions of everyone the Walkers met thoroughly horrible. Very unlikeable narrator. in my opinion!

Yes, thoroughly unlikeable. I cannot understand why anyone warmed to her narration. It will remain one of life's mysteries.

I was surprised how many posts there were online that pre-dated the Observer article commenting that the story of TSP seemed 'off' somehow and that people found the narrator unlikeable.

It's one of those stories that's just not that interesting (or that marketable) if it's not even true, though.

I didn't like it either and didn't expect that reaction. Some must have enjoyed it I suppose or it wouldn't have sold well.