To think there is nothing wrong with saying: “School is not optional, there will be consequences if you don’t attend, and the only person this’ll impact is you?

[ThatAmberBee]

I don’t understand why some people get so upset when parents are firm about school attendance. At the end of the day, missing school only hurts the child, and they’re the ones who’ll face the consequences in the long run. Isn’t it fair to make that clear?

Ah yes, good old straight talking. I suppose obesity is easily fixed by telling fat people to eat less? Alcoholics should stop drinking? Depressed people should cheer up? Back in the real world life is frequently more complex than a stern "telling it like it is" can fix.

But how do you know? The early stages certainly present the same

Clearly not as I can walk freely into any of the buildings on the high school campus, and you have to walk through the campus to get to vårdcentral, which is in the same building as the aula.

And I told him I take him room to room in a meeting with his 2 teachers, who both laughed because they recognise humour.

Never heard of anyone getting upset if someone is firm about attendance. I’m sure everyone considers attendance important. If a kid has poor attendance, it is usually for genuine reasons and the parents are well aware that it would be better for everyone if the child was in school.

Our son had an awful start to reception, he enjoyed nursery and settled in well, so his struggle wasn’t expected. He would be screaming in the morning, and on the walk to school, he would become so distressed he would often vomit. His sleep was poor as he was begging not to go to school the next day. On the days I did manage to get him to school he would often hid in the toilets, cloak room or in the playground.

A reduced timetable made no difference, it turned out to be two issues, his teacher wasn’t using his radio and she was then telling him off for not following instructions, he also had a TA who (and this was an odd one!) lip filler so he couldn’t read her lips as filled lips don’t move in a normal manner. Thankfully his teacher left at christmas, but so much damage was done it took weeks and weeks for him to feel safe at school again.

Imagine if it was only that simple....

That’s not what I said. I’m not claiming every challenge can be fixed by “straight talking”, I’m talking about when there aren’t deeper issues at play. There’s a difference between a child refusing school due to trauma and anxiety and a child pushing limits without any underlying cause. My comment was about the latter.

Are those things not true? The world does not revolve around one person. it’s hard being an adult, you have to be tough and work hard in this life. You have to be reliable and dependable. You need other people, you need money, you need to be able to contribute, you have to be educated and know your rights.

That’s why I was careful to say if there’s no underlying cause. I’m not saying to jump in with punishments immediately but once you’ve ruled out genuine issues, persistent refusal without a reason is different and can call for a firmer approach. I just don’t think we should act like every case is rooted in something deeper.

Spend some time in a PRU and then reflect on whether children come neatly forehead-stamped with "fine" and "SEN".

Parents of children with school based trauma have often spent years doing some mixture of saying exactly the sort of of things you are proposing, and/or trying to convince someone that their child was struggling. The approach you are advocating may work with some children but it can contribute to the trauma from others who look "fine in school" and haven't yet been identified as struggling.

It's not that easy to tell. Anxiety underlies a lot of behaviour that adults think discipline will fix. Sometimes the first time the parents understand the depth of the distress is in a suicide note.

There tends to be a gently gently approach on MN.

I was once empathising with a Mum who'd had an awful time getting her DD in that mroning - recounting when I had a few weeks - when that's to a teacher DD1 couldn't cope - it got sorted but the weeks were hell and I had good reasons not to let her not go.

I had two posters who were vile insiting my DD had been inrepabaly damanged - me pointing out DD1 was now 18 at uni and completely fine but nothing I said made a differnce the damanage must be there and I was terrible mother - didn't let up.

Saw one of them post few weeks later - their same age child no qualifications no friends completely isolated depressed and they were understandable worried sick and they were wondering if they should have pushed them into school over the years.

It was on a different board - and there was a more nauced discussion upshot was - no one knows sometimes pushing them into school makes problems much worse and sometimes it might help - and you as the parent have no idea which it will really be - and everyone else has 20/20 hindsight and doesn't have to deal with any fall out like you will.

@ThatAmberBee how many cases do you think don’t have underlying issues though? And what exactly do you call underlying issues?

DS1 was a "school refuser." Weirdly enough neither his HOY telling me it was my "job as a parent" to get him into school, nor telling him "what do you think will happen when your mum gets a fine and can't afford your holiday to Disneyland, or if she goes to prison?" Got him into school.

Trust me, I tried everything. Punishments. Begging. Tears. Rewards. Then I realised it was a MH issue and not a behaviour one.

Yes. We held the "school is not optional" line for far too long in hindsight (undiagnosed ND at that point, we didn't know enough to push back adequately on the pressure from school) and it absolutely made things worse. It's only now, 3 years on from "the start" that DC is in a position to maybe, possibly, perhaps attend school "properly" next year. (We're already talking about modified timetables for when it's not possible)

Unfortunately the pandemic showed kids that actually going into school is an option.

Schools are not meeting needs for a lot of kids with SEN which has a knock on effect. Schools aren't efficient at dealing with bullying or out of control kids. The one size fits all doesn't work anymore.

I do know a magistrate who had a parent up in front of him over persistent non-attendance. The parent was getting the child to school but the child was running out another exit, and the school said they could do nothing to stop that. Magistrate was satisfied parent was doing everything possible.

For a lot of parents, it's physically impossible to get their child to the school gate, especially secondary age. DS2 was compliant to get in the car but just couldn't go past the school office, when I was taking him. A complete break was needed.

DS3 I couldn't drive when he was dysregulated as it was far too dangerous.

In the vast majority of cases of a child just saying they’re not going to school, parents would say yes you are, and if there is no underlying cause, that would be the end of it, because kids know they’re meant to be at school. If it continues, there will always an underlying cause that is more deep rooted, very often ND, learning difficulty, bullying, problems at home etc. You don’t really know what you’re talking about OP.

Here's a radical idea - how about schools (especially secondary schools) take a good, hard long look at themselves and their regimes and reflect on why some children might be stressed and anxious at the thought of attending?

I don’t have stats on how many cases have underlying issues but I imagine it varies. By underlying issues I mean things like EBSA, neurodivergence, anxiety, family problems - anything more complex than a child just not feeling like going in. I agree those need a different approach. My post was really about when none of that is present and it’s more about habit, attitude, or pushing limits. That’s where I think consistency and firm boundaries help.

What's wrong is the notion that the way to achieve this by refusing to make adaptations along the way. Too many people (including way too many in the field of education) believe that treating children with additional needs as if they are NT will mold more "NT" behaviours and somehow create more acceptable, more NT-conforming adults.
Whereas ND affirming approaches allow children to understand themselves, understand why they experience the world the way they do and what approaches to learning and development are most effective for them.
Adults that understand their neurology, nervous systems and sensory systems etc. Are far more likely to be successful adults than those that have grown up in a system that makes them feel that they are struggling or failed NTs.

Fortunately, DD2 & DD3's LA disagreed with that approach and realised that the setting they were in couldn't meet their needs. DD3 was so traumatised that it took 9 months of dedicated support from very patient specialist teaching staff before she could attend her new school.

Most parents know when their child is just trying it on and will suggest that they "go to school and see how it goes". These aren't generally the kids who are long-term school refusers - they might have the odd unjustified day off but that's all.

Sure and I think both things can be true. Schools absolutely need to reflect on how their environments affect students, especially those who are struggling. At the same time, I think it’s also fair for parents to set expectations when the reluctance isn’t tied to stress, anxiety or deeper issues. My post was really about those more everyday boundary-pushing situations, not complex cases where the school system itself might be part of the problem.

I generally agree. There are a small amount of students either due to mental health issues, SEN, bullying or a mixture of the three for whom school is torturous and it is totallly understandable that they don’t attend. Then there are a larger group who are lazy with parents who either pander to them or don’t give a crap. With these students a firm hand and fines is the way to go but it’s not always easy to tell the difference between the two groups.

I would think the awful behaviour is a factor in kids not wanting to go. Teachers can't discipline bullies much so no wonder some kids would rather be shot in the face than go