Children / no children: talking with sister

[Everythingchanges72]

So I have two children and my sister is child free by choice. We’ve managed to stay pretty close even though we don’t see each other that often (I don’t live in the UK). We are visiting just now, and we usually try to have a night or two staying with my sister and her partner, and leave the children with my parents (they didn’t really have room to host all four of us, plus she and her partner are very particular about their house / possessions. Plus it’s fun to live like a DINKY for a couple of nights).

When children come up in the conversation, things feel really unbalanced, and it’s getting to me.

It’s like it’s fine for her to openly say how fantastic life is with no children (and she for do this, quite openly) but that it would be to insensitive for me to do the same from my side - to talk openly and enthusiastically about how great it is to be a parent and a mum to these two fantastic young people.

DH and I - like most parents - have made sacrifices and compromises along the way to do the best for our kids, and our life looks very different to hers. But I wouldn’t swap it for anything. But it feels mean to tell her that? That all the things she values so highly - super tidy, minimalist house, freedom to travel, never having to compromise, more money - yeah, great but I’d never swap my kids for any of that, not in a million years. But I can’t say that directly, right?

Maybe I am being over sensitive. It just annoys me that she can say how great her life is and why, but I can’t do the same because it would hurt her feelings / rub her nose in the fact she doesn’t have children. I know she’s sensitive about it even though it’s a choice she made for lots of good reasons.

i think it’s come to a head because she and her partner have recently made some big life changes, which they can only do because they don’t have kids, and our lifestyles are about to diverge quite dramatically (not just the kids / no kids, there are lots of other things changing).

I’ve taken the poll off but AIBU to think it’s easier to go on about how great a child-free lifestyle is, to someone who has children, than it is to do the inverse? To go on about how great it is to have children, to someone who does not?

I think YANBU in this specific situation with your sister, and I can see how it's frustrating for you.

But I think maybe you're underestimating the societal pressure that is still strongly to have kids (although not as much as it used to be), which she probably comes up against all the time.

So I think overall you still get the better deal.

I think that if she really is childless by choice she shouldn't feel bad about you talking how great life is with your children and how you would never swap them for anything in the world.

Why do you think she's sensitive about it? She should be sensitive about it if she wanted kids and couldn't have them. Has she told you this directly or you are just assuming she will feel bad?

In the room it feels like just you and your sister.

But remember you have the entire weight of society, media, centuries of patriarchy and governments right behind you reinforcing your lifestyle as the best one

whereas people like your sister are just a few small voices.

that being said, no one should be rubbing anyone's nose in their lifestyles and "going on about it" so to speak. I moved to the countryside village from my crime ridden London suburb but I don't bang on about it to my friends still living there.

Doesn’t sound like a choice to be childfree to me if she is so sensitive about it

I don’t know for sure, but I know she felt very pushed out because our parents absolutely love being grandparents and make no secret of it. Plus she’s had questions / pressure from relatives in the past. And she’s a fairly uptight, anxious person - I think I do tend to tread carefully around anything sensitive with her.

Also in the past when the children were younger it genuinely was nice to escape to spend a couple of days with her and her partner, having child free time. It’s possible DH and I overdid the gratitude. But now it feels like it’s tipping over into her feeling sorry for poor downtrodden me with my messy little house and having to take the needs of two teenagers into consideration 🙄

Neither of you should need to prove to the other that your choices in life - in this case to have DC or say you are child-free by choice - are just so amazing and the best thing ever. I’m inclined to think that people who go on and on about certain subjects like this sometimes means they wish they had the opposite of what they do have in reality.

Or, some just like to boast about what they have and, more importantly to them, what they perceive you don’t have compared to them.

You are spot on, thank you for posting.

And yes she’s made that kind of move recently, plus looking at very early retirement and she’s very excited about both of these. So she doesn’t have a lot of headspace for anything else just now.

I'm childree by choice and honestly think it's odd that the conversation would ever head in the direction where you're both telling one another how fantastic life is with/without kids.

With my parent friends and sister, when the conversation gets onto kids it's in the form of what they've been doing recently, how their hobbies are going, an update on the recent issue they were having at school, what they've requested they do for their upcoming birthday party etc.

It's the same with me talking about DH to a single friend. I can't imagine I've ever sat there glowing, talking about how wonderful marriage is. Instead the conversation is more "Oh yes he's fine thanks. He's been really busy with work. His mum's having an operation next week. His sister is pregnant. He's back into running again etc etc."

I can't think how the conversation would go otherwise: "What did you do on Saturday?" "I had a wonderful lie in because I don't have kids and it's amazing and restful". "What did you do?" "I took the kids to the park. It's so amazing watching them play, they bring me such overwhelming joy and it's brilliant being a parent"!

"Well Sarah, we're coming at this from very different angles, so let's leave it there"
I don't understand why you would both engage in talk about a subject that bothers you both. It's like pulling off a scab before it's ready. Stop engaging with her and move the conversation elsewhere. It sounds like you are both stuck in childhood roles. .

It’s crap to talk lots to you, her sibling (or indeed anyone), about how great an aspect of her life is, when your situation is different and she doesn’t ask about yours.

Doing this back to her by saying things like how much you love being a mum would just be ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’.

It’s not routine or helpful conversation.

Does she rarely show interest in or spend time with her nieces/nephews, even now they’re teens? If so that seems unusual.

Wondering if there’s an underlying problem, eg your views about her, your relationship with her and/or her choices as an aunt to your DC.

If the visits no longer work well for you and/or your DC would perhaps just see her for a shorter time and not stay there.

Neither of you should need to prove to the other that your choices in life - in this case to have DC or say you are child-free by choice - are just so amazing and the best thing ever. I’m inclined to think that people who go on and on about certain subjects like this sometimes means they wish they had the opposite of what they do have in reality.

Agree, my sibling doesn't want dc. We never feel the need to justify our choices to each other.

It’s like it’s fine for her to openly say how fantastic life is with no children (and she for do this, quite openly) but that it would be to insensitive for me to do the same from my side - to talk openly and enthusiastically about how great it is to be a parent and a mum to these two fantastic young people.

How does she express this? Is it "we are planning to retire at 50 because money saved on not having dc makes that a lot easier" or more offensive?

i think it’s come to a head because she and her partner have recently made some big life changes, which they can only do because they don’t have kids, and our lifestyles are about to diverge quite dramatically (not just the kids / no kids, there are lots of other things changing)

This sounds like you have a bit of insecurity too as your lives take different parts.

My sibling has a fantastic life without dc and I have a fantastic life with dc.

I am child free by choice.

Are you listening for what is implied or is she actually saying it?

For a simple example

'I am off on a cruise again that I can afford because I don't have children '

'I am off on a cruise again because I love them' (and the implication being she can afford it because she doesn't have children)

Is she saying the first? Or the second?

Indeed. Sounds like she is trying to justify that it was a good decision by going on about how wonderful life is.

Wait, they're teens? I assumed they were toddlers and that's why they were left with parents. I'd definitely be bringing my DDs to see their aunt, even if they had to stay elsewhere due to logistics.

Agree. Why do you need your lifestyle choice verified so much as to need to talk about how great your life is to your sister? I imagine she is jealous, so I wouldn't rub it in her face.

She is childfree by choice. And your sister.
Doesn’t she love her niece/nephews?

You can say, oh no need to feel sorry for us we visit you to see you we don’t need time away from our children, it’s a nice change though sis.

I find it odd that people would go on about how great having a clean tidy house is over having a house with people in it.

You can be gentle and say I love my life as well sis you do understand this don’t you, I wouldn’t swap my kids for early retirement or a tidy house for a quiet house. I’m glad you’re happy, moving into a different stage, ticking off life goals and have what you want, I love our kids even when they are sticky and messy, as Bob Marley said “life is worth much more than gold”

It sounds like she might be overcompensating for not having children, she might not be, but she might be. She might be reflecting if she had of had children they would be young adults now, bringing their own stories to the table and she is romanising how things might’ve been for her now. Perhaps sitting eating with just one person night after night in a lovely minimalist house is missing something? Who knows?

H & I have discussed this, there is a love you feel for your kids that you don’t feel for anyone else, we can still remember that whoosh when they were born and added in seeing their relationship grow (ours love each other more than they love anyone else which is how we wanted it to be because theirs will be the longest relationship either of them are likely to have) is amazing to be part of.

Being childfree by choice is totally understandable and you don’t miss what you don’t have, but equally having a fun, loving, messy, expensive will never retire family is also fulfilling and filled with things worthy of conversation.

How you react to your sister’s conversation is up to you @Everythingchanges72 you can choose not to let her make you feel like you should excuse them.

I think the key here is understanding why conversations about which type of life is best, are such a huge part of your relationship.

My sister knows how much I love having children. I know she wouldn't think about it in a hundred years. She talks about her kitesurf, her mountaineering, her busy job, her new kitchen table, her friends. I talk about my children, my house renovations, my travels. Neither of us usually talks about how our life is or what that all amounts to. (We did once recently but that was because we were holidaying together.)

I think it speaks volumes that your sister's conversation is so focused on what her life amounts to. She is clearly working through that. And yes, I think the precious commenter was spot on when they said that your sister's choices are implicitly and often explicitly judged by the weight of society and history. So I agree you got the lucky straw.

Can you open you the conversation about the societal pressures there are? Can you help her work through the massive judgement she is understandably feeling? That's what I do for my childfree-but-feeling-judged-by-society friends and it's done worlds of good for our friendships. They weren't jealous of me. They were touchy because they kept getting questions about their childfree status and I was such a stereotypical example of "does it right in the eyes of the grandparents".

Tbh you sound more insecure about your choices than she does about hers?

I just never got around to having DC and DH wasn't keen. I could have all the travel, etc, if I wasn't tied by looking after people. Never going to have a tidy house tho.

I definitely have had my sister say lots of things about her DC & had pressure from DM to leave DH in order to have DC. Plus there's an expectation I can do more because of fewer obligations.

I like to hear about the trials & tribulations of family life tho. It's not better or worse, just different.

I suspect there's more going on there than you know about. If you want to talk about your DC, then do. But a feeling you are walking on eggshells might suggest the relationship is more fragile than you know.

Having your DP bang on about the GC might also be causing issues, as it sounds like they aren't as sensitive as you seem to be & resentment builds, even if you're keen to be kind & skirt the choice. I'd say this is more about your sister than a straight choice about having had DC.

I do get a bit of a whiff of being a failure as a woman for not having kids, from some other women too. My sil had ivf etc & she is a lot more sensitive, so I think it may not be a choice your sister is as comfortable with as you think.

The bit that jumped out at for me was the comment about your parents and grandkids. Could they have made it clear to her that she is somehow less than you as she doesn't have kids? This unfortunately I have seen happen and can make you pretty resentful.

I agree with the poster who commented in how society still looks at child free people with the side eye. Its much more accepted today but not fully. Hopefully that will improve over the years. I don't think everyone is cut out for parenthood and it'd a good thing that people can now ope my say no thank you, not for me.

I’ve got friends who are child free and do this. I just say “ isn’t it great we’ve both made choices that make us happy? You love your life and I love mine.”
It’s not a competition, and everyone has to struggle at times,

Setting all the unknowns (like if it really is her choice) and societal expectations, comments from other family members aside, if you both love each other and respect each other’s choices why is it a problem?

Couldn’t you clear the air, just the two of you, and then just enjoy hearing about each other’s lives and plans?

This sounds self imposed by you though that you can't talk about your life with children. Or at the very least that you are interpreting things she says as a dig at you in some way. So if, for example, they are travelling loads because they have more disposable income and aren't tied to school holidays. Would your sister actually say 'well of course we can do ths because we don't have children...'? In which case she is being a dick. Or are you just sitting there thinking it?

I am also not sure what the things you feel are out of bounds to talk about. Surely you just talk about what's going on in your life. And sometimes it will involve kids, sometimes not. I can't think of equivalent 'boast' for life with kids. Because even if you talk about achievements 'DD won an xx award and her xx team was top of the league' etc I don't see why that would upset someone child free.

I'm child free by choice. Naturally, my conversation topics will be different from those of my friends who have children.

I tend to find my friends with children fall into two categories:

• Those who we see with their children, who talk about their children's accomplishments and what they get up to in the week;
• Those who will only see me if their children are being cared for elsewhere and who do not talk to me about their children.

I prefer the first category! Having or not having children is not a competition. I'm pleased for those who have them, I want to hear about them and what certificates they've just got for football or whatever.

I don't understand the need to hide away your children or not talk about them. It just seems a bit childish (ironically).