To think it is not that easy to 'get a better job'

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

Seen a few threads lately about people with money issues, and on low wages or minimum wage.
Then some posters say things like 'why haven't you got a promotion in the last X years?' 'Why don't you re-train / upskill?' 'Why don't you get a better job?'

As if anyone stays in a minimum wage job for years just for the fun of it!

The job market is a pyramid - there is not enough room on the higher levels for everyone. Even as you age you can't automatically expect to climb the ladder and move up - the maths don't stack up. Not every field of work has a 'career ladder'.
Some people are stuck on minimum wage or not much more, for life. They may not have the ability or skills or aptitude to re-train or get promoted, let alone the time and energy.

It smacks of blaming the OP for not being ambitious enough. Some posters seem to have no conception of what life and the job market is like for minimum wage workers.

In teaching, once you reach the top of the pay scale you are actually very limited in terms of promotion, especially in smaller places. I work in a smallish college where people stay for a long time. Obviously that shows job satisfaction but it also means the already small pool of promoted posts (we have heads of faculty, not per subject so there’s only about 5 of those posts in the whole place) rarely throws up any vacancies, and there’s lots of competition when they do come up. Once upon a time there were a whole slew of TLRs available for things like managing a subject but now we do that for free. Also, being head of faculty is a massive leap up, lots more responsibility and lots of line management which obviously a classroom teacher has never done before! So very easy to spend 30+ years essentially in the same job with no promotion. The top of the pay scale is a decent salary but it’s a bit depressing to feel like the next 25 years of my career could see no progression at all unless I want to go into basically a completely different job!

This is Mumsnet, where people claim they earn 6 figures and above, regularly.

I'm extremely bright but not university educated. I've ran my own business and another business. COVID hit. I didn't work for 2x years (god bless my husband) and now I'm in a NLW charity role.i know I could earn more but we live rurally, I'd have to commute 1-2 hours for a high paid job but we can't afford the extra 2-4 ,hours out of the house due to family commitments.

Sadly a lot of mumsnetters think it's easy to progress and earn a lot, it's not that easy at all

Me too 😊
I suppose the point I was trying to make was, that shit events occur out of the blue and put an end plans. Instead your life is not your own and you become trapped.

@Daisyvodka apologies, I quoted the wrong member. Ignore me.

Indeed the smugness and judgement on this type of thread is always sickening.

No one seems to remember that lower paid jobs need to done for the economy/the country to function. So if everyone left to 'get a better job' we would be in serious trouble.

Also why not ask why employers get away with paying low wages and why a Labour government is doing so all to address the cost of living crisis.

Because working people should have a decent, basic standard of living no matter what job they do.

As for retraining with astronomical tuition fees it is now out of reach for mature students.

Also people are kidding themselves if they don't think that how you start in life (which really is pure luck) does not affect your work outcomes.

Those who are born in reasonably wealthy, stable families and go to the best schools usually will get jobs through contacts and networks but will convince themselves that it is all though 'hard work'.

If your face does not fit, if you are disabled, an older worker and so on then you will have to fight additional odds in the workplace.

You only have to look at who succeeds in politics in this country to realise it has nothing to do with 'hard work' or talent...

Even if there is a career ladder doesn't, everyone can climb it.

One there was a promotion at my firm last time.Four people applied for the job.

It's very hard. There's not enough decent jobs to go around and some older people don't want to or can't afford to retire. My manager is 68, the CEO of the charity I work for is around 75, many others over pension age. they just for whatever reason won't retire. I'm not suggesting they should have to but it does mean less opportunities for anyone else to move up.

It’s by no way easy but it is possible. It’s felt like it’s been close to breaking me at times but I’m just coming out the other end. It looks like working full time, doing homework, spending time with your kid/s, cooking and getting them into bed then sitting down to study until you fall asleep. Up at 5am in the last few weeks before exams to get that bit extra study in even though you’re exhausted. Having to turn things down as you need to prioritise. Feeling guilt at having a study book in your hand rather than running round the play park. The house just being passable and winging it with a lot of things. On repeat for 2.5 years. Yet getting the chance to double my salary has made it worth it

I know. I can never get over the sheer stupidity of people who believe that everyone can be successful if they work hard enough. How many Generals do they think are needed compared to foot soldiers? It particularly surprises me that the people who say these things are presumably in good jobs themselves, so you'd think they would be capable of a little critical thinking.

There isn't any training or opportunity to upskill in many admin jobs. I've literally never been offered anything and they ignore any requests for extra excel training. Management probably like us staying in one place, knowing how it all works and don't want to lose anyone.

Tried to do OU but had to stop it as I had a non sleeping child for eight years.

Upskilling? With what money?

Employers training you? There’s been a budget cut for training within in my organisation/sector - a lot of money is going into AI and other tech stack at the moment.

Get a better job? The job market is brutal right now.

But these are different things - I do agree with you wholeheartedly that these jobs have to be much better paid. In many other countries care workers have to do training courses (paid for by job centres), pass tests and then they are respected jobs paying sufficiently to have a reasonable living standard. It has to be like this here as well, so many crucial jobs are woefully underpaid.

It's a separate topic though.

The question was about moving jobs and /or getting promotions though. And here I believe that intelligent, driven people can and should be able to achieve it. Those who want look for opportunity, the rest look for excuses.

Anyone who works full time on min wage or above should be able to afford a home, utility bills, food and run a car if they need one. A single person should be able to afford those things, so anyone bringing in two wages to the house should be comfortable. We shouldn’t need top ups.

Covid made it very clear who society needs most, since those people were thrown out to take the risk of catching the illness, and many of those people are on min wages.

Progression is great but many people are juggling other responsibilities and haven’t got the opportunity to do so. I could have had a career but when I was left a single mum I made the choice to be present for my children. I worked term time, I didn’t use wraparound and I was there as much as I could be for the children. That choice means I’m now on a low wage for my capabilities and age. I don’t regret it, I made the choice of family rather than money and I had no option for both.

True, but if you don;t upskill and pursue promotion it's not going to drop in your lap, is it?

Have you done a food shop recently? Min wagers are struggling beyond belief and it's only going to get worse. People working full time to still be scraping the barrel. It's awful

I think she was referring to what she think it should be not what it is - she's saying that minimum wahe should be enough to live on and should be increased is how I read it
@ClimbingMounjaro was acknowledging how these minimum wage workers were the essential workers during the pandemic.

I got a student loan and am doing distance learning part time. You don't need to pay anything up front.

The whole point is not every job has the opportunity to upskill or get a promotion.

Someone on a NMW job probably won't be able to afford to study, or take time off for interviews / to secure other positions. They work many hours, often doing a physical job so to say they "can't be arsed" to better themselves is very ignorant.

It's very, very difficult to climb out of poverty once you are there.

This is the very reason upskilling is needed. AI is integrating further and further into more complex processes. More and more tasks are bing automated. Those NLW admin jobs won’t exist in the not too distant future once more and more companies embrace. It’s stretching through many sectors.

There are so many free resources online if costs of training are prohibitive.

Often, there might only be a couple of grand difference in the general worker to the supervisor. Very little difference in take-home pay but significantly more responsibility, so it just isnt worth it.

It can be worth it - for the line on the CV - which can then enable hopping to another company in a similar role for more pay. The reality is there is a 'can-do' mindset required. And you cant complain if you dont make the effort and try. A couple more grand net - may mean more responsibility but could be £150 extra a month to pay for 2 children to take up an extra curricular activity that family may not otherwise be able to afford or an expensive residential. Whilst working towards better.

There are, of course, situations where making this sort of progress is impossible but those are few. Excuses that need to be binned:

1. My face doesnt fit
2. I dont have the connections
3. The pay uplift is peanuts (most people take a peanuts pay uplift initially)
4. I cant upskill in my own time (many study 2-3 hours many evenings after putting the kids to bed to secure that extra certification. It's not forever)
5. I don't want to take on student loan (if the qualification doesnt result in better wages, you wont pay it back anyway)
6. I'm not smart enough (says who? And not being book smart in teenage years does not disqualify from learning when more mature and developed)
7. Somebody has to earn minimum wage (doesnt have to be you. You cna start there but dont have to end there. If there is no one to do the job, a solution will emerge and it always does)

Oh come on
let’s be realistic

If someone has been working for 50 odd years and then retires having never done anything other a minimum wage job it will be because

a) they never pursued anything more and / or
b) they were incapable of anything more

I busted a gut for years after being out of workforce for caring/ parental responsibility, got in the door with retail, every training course I could do, OU, unpaid voluntary extra hours, you name it. Eventually, after years of false promises and starts, got to manager. Once you took out the commute costs, I earned no more than my team. First year busted every target, they promptly doubled targets without the infrastructure in place to achieve it. That continued every year. It was a set up to fail. No chance of hitting targets. Instead of looking at why, they played blame game. I got out. Not worth the stress, the waking at 3am worrying about the targets. All for a couple of grand above NMW. Never again. I'll go into old age in poverty, a few years ago I was determined for that not to happen but now I'm resigned to it. I have lots of experience and expertise now, I know I am intelligent, retail don't want to pay for it. They instead over promote utter halfwits, retail is generally run by idiots who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. I go to work, go home. I thought I wanted promotion, but seeing on the inside how its run, I'm happy I lowered my expectations.

So if someone stays on minimum wages because they are 'incapable of anything more' do they not deserve to have a home, a family and a life?

''@newmummycwharf1 Excuses that need to be binned:

1. My face doesnt fit
2. I dont have the connections''

You are being very naive if you think that people mentioning that their 'face don't fit' is an excuse or that 'having connection'' does not give people an advantage in life.

I can assure you that for instance having disabilities/long term health conditions often means less favourable treatment in the workplace.

I started my career in admin role and got myself to a level of being a Head of marketing and communications managing people and large budgets. Before that when I was studying I worked as a cleaner then a shop assistant.

Then my health condition (a disability) got worse and everything changed. I was undermined, excluded from meeting, scapegoated simply for daring to be sick and needing time off and having to request reasonable adjustments.

I also happen to be British but born in a different country and I still have an accent. And I can tell you that this has resulted in instances of me being under-estimated and patronised.

So in the real world there are many reasons why some people can struggle at work beyond what you patronisingly refer as a lack of a can-do' mindset.