To feel incredibly sad when i see little boys in the playground weidling plastic machine guns

[lucyellensmum]

This has always baffled me, even before i became a parent. What is it about human nature that has us wanting to play killing games at such a young age?? I mean, its not a new phenomenon is it - so now its gangsta and whatever it might be called, when i was young it was cowboys and indians. WTF?? Why do toy manufacturers still do this? There are CHILDREN being killed by guns in this country and it appears to be a major problem. I don't know if playing with guns naturally leads to this, i mean, im sure 99% of perfectly nice little boys play with guns and they don't grow up to be gangstas and murderers. But WHY do people think this is OK??

We constantly teach our children that it is NOT OK to hit and be spiteful. But then we say, ah, but its ok to pretend to kill each other?????

I don't have a boy, i have two girls so thankfully havent had to have grandparents etc buy them toy guns and army tanks, i would probably just give in and let them have them for an easy time, but it would make me uncomfortable. But am i being unreasonable, it is just human nature so natural play? ITs the same with play station, i do think that has a lot to answer for though.

OOps - that should have been s p i e s

lol Mrs Carrot

Good post, Soapbox.

Boys will be boys, and they'll play with guns, or bows and arrows, or swords and shields or whatever "weapons" come into their hands. Doesn't mean a thing. I'm far from being and expert, but it seems that the issue of gun and knife crime is partly down to a need to feel "respected" and safe in a world that appears to offer little opportunity for young people. How you fix that, I don't know.

As for gender stereotyping, well both my brothers and my husband ran around daft with guns etc when they were boys. My brothers are lovely ordinary people - no guns. My husband, on the other hand, is a soldier and has never wanted to be anything else. He's currently disgustingly pleased with himself that hhis recent weapons test result classed him as a marksman.

My two nieces were brought up to have no dolls, no pink things etc, according to my brother and sister-in-law's thoughts. Eldest niece is not a girly girl, youngest is as pink and fluffy and sparkly as they come. My sister and I had dolls and similar toys - I was the on who was into books and cars and running around with my brothers, my sister was the feminine one. Guess who ended up as a very contented SAHM? Not my clinical geneticist of a sister, that's for sure!

I think that no matter what you do, people are born with natural inclinations and they will win out - doesn't mean that all girls are destined for domestic life if they play with dolls, just as a playing with guns doesn't automatically lead to a life of gun-related crime.

I think there is a BIG difference between the finger pointing / stick wielding / bang bang play, and the replica weapons thing. One is imaginative and involves fantasy elements only. Children can work through concepts they are struggling with - good, bad, danger, aggression, fear, etc

giving a replica of a real weapon removes a lot of the fantasy element and the type of play becomes less imaginative and more solely aggressive. There is an interesting book about this called "We don't play with guns here" which argues for letting children explore this type of fantasy play but argues against replica weapons for the above reason.

Spud Guns are fantastic fun.

Interesting F&Z - I really have not noted any difference at all in the type of play whether imitation fire arms or carrots/sticks are used. Although of course, one only ever has the experience of a dozen or so boys to base that view on, not a whole population!

It's just playing in my opinion. My cousin banned all guns for her two boys and they just made them out of various objects or even just pointed a finger.

Big believer in boys needing to deal with their aggression before then get to teenager stage. Wrestling and fighting are fun until someone gets hurt and consequences come into play - boys (and girls) learn what is acceptable and what is not, what is playing ( such as lazer quest) and what is not.

I think kids sometimes have a better understanding of reality than some adults!

I dont really like the idea of toy guns, knives etc but doesnt rock my world, what I saw the other day that made me really sad was a little lap tray for kids, I just got this picture of kids plonkied infront of the tv to eat their tea.

it made sense to me soapbox, although I have had very little experience of watching this type of play myself

they observed that imaginary gun play (eg lego or fingers) tended to be quite fluid and take in lots of other elements, eg "here's a dragon! now we are going up in space! Now here are the baddies bang bang! Now we're going to swim across this river!" type of thing

whereas replica weapon play tended to be "bang! aaargh! ouch! oof! got you! aaaargh! bang! your head's fallen off!" etc

i think you have made some good poits there franny. Its a difficult one - i try not to gender sterotype my DD, she has train sets and doesnt like dolls, but my god does she love pink!!

Its an interesting area i think. I do wonder if saying about the replica weapons is true to a point, but then could that be the same with replica anything? that these toys take the imagination away? I do shy away from electric copy toys actually, but as DD gets older i daresay she will want them.

yep I think replica toys do detract from imaginative play
open ended toys much more likely to encourage fantasy and so on

not being sniffy btw, we have loads of replica toys here
just my beliefs and observations

clueless.......laptrays are fab......mine used to have them and did colouring and jigsaws on them....never used them for food!!!

We've had toast, Brio Builder and lego guns here too - ds and dd both joining in. I was like soapbox, planning on a gun-free, Nobel-Prize approved harmonious household...but honestly, all children "rehearse" menacing, even violent scenarios, in imaginative play.
We still don't have any toy gun weapons, I think...but we do have supersoakers!
Ds is the kindest boy, a bookworm who rehomes snails gently etc...but he still likes to stalk and blast his friends in what is left of our shrubbery. And PMSL at Abbey and the wrestling...last year's birthday party finished up with a ratking of eight-year-olds on our patio. I thought they were all killing each other - they were having a wonderful time

I was going to post about how children should learn about violence, and how to manage it - I decided not to, because I was afraid of unleashing WW3 - but I see that soapbox has made the same point below.

Violence is part of life. Children need to understand it as part of growing up. The important thing is to teach them not to start fights or pick on people weaker than themselves.

DS has 6 guns after us banning them - he used to make them out of twigs, his sisters pens and dolls and anything slightly resembling a barrel of a gun.

We gave up and are bringing him up to understand that it is just playing.

wouldn't say sad. it's part of natural development, but i do despair at the range of toys out there. lightsabres are the work of the devil.

my ds(6) has quite happily been pretending an old tape measure is indiana jones's whip, now he's seen one already made for £14.99 in tesco. it annoys me, he would have quite happily played with the tape measure until he saw that whip. cynical marketing annoys me.

I used toi think "no guns" but...

DS found DH's old cap guns when we were loft clearing! He has loads of "Super Soaker" water guns, and bought himself some laser guns and target vests so him & a friend can play together (laser target takes so many shots then you are out) which were fun.

He then got a BB gun which I didn't like, but he knows he cannot use it with friends, only with his targets indoors (whan all animals safely shut out) and he has to wear goggles.

DH has even shown him his air rifle and they shoot apples in the garden, with a metal board behind to catch any stray bullets (This is locked away by DH).

To be honest, he now seems to have grown out of this facination - haven't seen the BB out for a year, and he only gets interest rekindled when we see all the stuff out at French markets.

the toys of peace

When I was a little girl I played guns a lot. When I was 10 I remember wanting to move to the USA as soon as I was an adult so I could own a real one. I thought they were really exciting, and that playing cowboys, robbers or superheros was much more interesting than the sort of games girls were supposed to play.

Now, some years later, I am a pacifist, paid up member of AI and overall dyed-in-the-wool hippy. I am delighted that the UK has such strict gun laws and support them fully.

I have 2 ds' and when they want them, I will let them have toy guns - tho I'd be delighted if they didn't want them. I don't think their's much of a link b/w playing w. guns as part of a normal, secure childhood and later gun violence. I think childhood abuse and neglect are far more likely culprits here.

pshyco never thought of that, go laptrays.

there's, I mean

Lucy, I love Saki. Amazingly for someone with such beady insight into parents and small children, he had no children himself
I will remember that story the next time I am leafing through my Unicef catalogue