To think that there are early signs, just not always the ones we expect?

[ByGutsyTealViewer]

You often hear women say “there we no signs” when physical or verbal abuse begins. But I think there are small signs, things that might not scream ‘abuser’ but quietly hint at emotional volatility or control.

Stuff like:
-Punching walls when angry
-Throwing or breaking objects in frustration
-Sulking for days over small things
-Overreacting to minor inconveniences
-Blaming others for everything going wrong

I don’t think spotting one of these makes someone ‘definitely abusive’ but AIBU to think they can be early clues to someone lacking emotional regulation and potentially escalating?

A lot of abused women don't see these as "abuse" because they are normal things for their background. Or they are used to being told that things are their fault, so they accept that this is true. It's only when they escalate they realise.

You seem to be suggesting that the women who report that there were no early signs that a partner would become abusive are at fault for not having your acuteness.

Yes, exactly. These come up over and over again on here, not as something a poster was actually posting about, but they come up in the course of a thread which is called something like 'AIBU to think my partner should sometimes do night feeds?' and the heartbreaking, sobering thing is always that, for these posters, punching a wall, shouting, walking out or days of silent treatment is entirely normal and 'how men are'. So of course they don't register signs. That's just male behaviour to them, because that's what their father did, their uncles, their brothers. Normal as breathing.

Yes. Sounds like victim blaming.

The first two are screaming red flags 🚩 🚩

it’s like people who claim there were no signs their dog was aggressive, they saw the signs but choose to ignore and yes I have been through DV but the signs were all there. I think a lot of women need to look up the word love bombing and stop entertaining it.

Are we back to blaming the victims?

Apparently.

Not at all, the responsibility always lies with the abuser. My point is that sometimes there are subtle early behaviours that can be worth noticing, not because it’s anyone’s fault for missing them but because recognising them early might help someone feel more confident in trusting their instincts or leaving sooner. It’s about awareness, not blame.

I wouldn't call punching walls and breaking things 'small signs'. I'd call them quite big signs. But I think some women don't see all those things you've listed as signs because they've grown up in households where those behaviours were common, and may even behave in that way themselves, so they don't necessarily consider them warning signs for physical abuse - and indeed, while I think the things you've listed are all the behaviour of a total arsehole who is probably emotionally abusive, possibly even coercive-controlling, they don't necessarily degenerate into physical attacks.

Also, some women might have watched their partner do these things for years without escalation into violence, so are still surprised (understandably) when it suddenly goes a step further.

There's also the 'boiling a frog' thing - when something happens so gradually that you almost don't notice it until it's too late.

Sometimes, though, there really are no signs. I can think of one woman I know, in particular, who found herself in such an insane and sudden violent situation with someone hitherto pretty mild-mannered and normal that I still wonder to this day if he actually had an actual psychotic episode. Sensibly, she didn't stick around to find out.

@ByGutsyTealViewer

I think that you are overlooking the fact that most abusive people (male and female) present themselves in a very different way when they, not only meet their partner, but in most cases to the outside world.

It can even start off with being too tired to go out after work, this being a once off to slowly being every week and saying we can have a nice night in together.
It all sounds very romantic until you realise that your friends are no longer calling and asking you to go out.
This will be linked to other little things. not liking X friend etc.

But it builds slowly, unnoticeably until it becomes normal and very hard to break away from.

Not necessarily. My kids dad there was signs, he was always volatile.
My ex fiance was always such an nice, caring man until the past December when he suddenly became moody, snappy, and one day I accidentally elbowed him so he elbowed me back really hard.
Dumped me out the blue.
Turns out he was having an affair that month and once I had gone from his life he moved her in and then he started on his kids, lost custody to his ex.
So no there isn't always signs. Luckily I'm still allowed to see them due to the mother and never have to see him again.

I think the small signs are the woman running around doing everything for the children, all the cooking and cleaning and him being happy with that.

I don't think its right to shut down discussions as victim blaming. It could be very helpful to profile a personality type that is more likely to suffer from abuse. It could help people identify their own situations before things get out of hand, it could help friends and family intervene. Yes, sometimes the abused person and indeed the abuser have no idea what's to come... but sometimes it's very obvious to others just not the victim because certain personality types and patterns are followed. Did you ever meet a little kid and your heart sinks a little because you just know they will be bullied at school? It helps them that others see this vulnerability as they can be monitored more carefully or offered support.

All of those are red flags. The subtle signs are

"you spend a lot of time with your friends"
"we never seem to do stuff together anymore"
" I prefer it when you wear the blue dress"

Which over time becomes

" I don't want you seeing them"
"I don't want you to do anything unless it's with me"
"You're not wearing that, you look like a tart!"

I think sometimes there are signs that are ignored. Sometimes there are signs that are missed.

Sometimes, however, when someone says there were no signs it's because there were no signs.

Punching the wall...

I remember when I was about 15 a boy in my year at school came in with his hand all bandaged up a couple of times because he'd punched the wall after arguing with his mum.

The general consensus among the girls in our year was that his mum must be an absolute bitch to drive her son to do that and that he was soooo good for punching the wall instead of her.

Looking back I'm horrified we thought like that. We were idiot teenagers of course but there must be some naive or vulnerable girls and women whose partners punch the wall and they think it's a sign of decency that it's the wall he hit and not them, not realising how it could escalate.

I don't know if that boy ever went on to hit his mum or any other woman but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

I hope he didn't.

None of your examples are small signs, they are all clear big flashing light warning signs!

This seems like victim blaming to me.

Sometimes the partner doesn’t understand it’s abusive because they’ve never had experience with it so when he says “I’m really sorry. I don’t know what happened but you know I’m stressed at the moment but here’s a bunch of flowers to show you it won’t happen again” or any other excuse, she believes him because why wouldn’t she? In her experience, men are decent so there must have been a genuine reason for that out of character reaction.

I feel that as part of PHSE, children (and current adults) should be taught about the signs. E.g. Dr Jane Monckton Smith's research indicating an eight-stage pattern in homicide where men kill women.

1. A pre-relationship history of stalking or abuse by the perpetrator
2. The romance developing quickly into a serious relationship
3. The relationship becoming dominated by coercive control
4. A trigger to threaten the perpetrator's control - for example, the relationship ends or the perpetrator gets into financial difficulty
5. Escalation - an increase in the intensity or frequency of the partner's control tactics, such as by stalking or threatening suicide
6. The perpetrator has a change in thinking - choosing to move on, either through revenge or by homicide
7. Planning - the perpetrator might buy weapons or seek opportunities to get the victim alone
8. Homicide - the perpetrator kills his or her partner, and possibly hurts others such as the victim's children

Have a read here www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49481998.amp

I dont think its victim blaming, to see how these things start, and comment on it. OP isn't saying that women are at fault for not noticing , but that it would be useful if these signs could be talked about more, so that more women could be aware.

I also think it's important that professional help is offered to potential abusers. Whether through school education or an information campaign. There should be some sort of safe space for a young man who feels a certain way to seek professional help, this is not aimed at making life better for 'bad' people but prevention of the abuse occurring in the first place. Maybe a young man who has been rejected by a girl feels violent towards her and through some sort of intervention learns to process that hurt differently, next time he won't feel that way or learn to accept the rejection. I don't know much about psychology but there must be a reason people try to own and control others, why they feel so terrified of that person leaving. There must be some sort of treatment that could save them escalating.

The issue with offering this type of help to school pupils is that the parents would still have to agree to it.
And that puts a lot of blocks in the way from "not my Nigel", cultural issues, and the "victim" is just saying stuff.
I put victim instead of "her/she" because the victim can be male, and victim is quotes because sometimes the "victim" can be the abuser and report for more control etc.

To be honest the majority of the time when I hear a woman say “there were no signs” keep her talking and you hear all the signs.