Page 6 | To think this journalist from the independent is rather deluded ?

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

TheKeatingFive · 08/08/2025 08:44

okay so her daughter wouldn’t mind being approached by a trans woman in the lingerie department but the vast majority of young teen age girls would

Exactly, it's the arrogance of this kind of reasoning that's so infuriating.

Why does this woman think her daughter's reaction is the benchmark for all young girls? Plenty of teenagers would be made deeply uncomfortable by this. Why does this journo think we shouldn't listen to the young girl involved?

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I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

Countdown2023 · 08/08/2025 09:11

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 08:54

Why is bra fitting relevant here? The employee did not offer a fitting service and there’s no indication that they have any involvement with that service, which requires specific skills and training.

I’ve no idea what M&S approach to hiring bra fitters is but it seems entirely irrelevant to this particular employee.

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It relevant in that it could be that M&S, and other retailers, need to introduce DBS checks / safeguarding training for some staff such as those who work in Lingerie.

i am sure you agree that safeguarding & child protection are very important. Then hopefully occurrences such as this may reduce, after all there may have been other occasions in other stores.

Nellodee · 08/08/2025 09:11

If the employee COULD see the mother, and realised they were together, surely the part that doesn’t add up is that he asked the teen if she needed help. I have never been in a shop with my young teens where the staff have addressed them instead of me. The mum’s story adds up. Had the employee been aware of her presence he would have either approached her or (far more likely) not approached at all.

TheKeatingFive · 08/08/2025 09:14

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

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he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help.

He shouldn't have been there in the first place

He approached a young girl he thought was alone.

But more generally, no, there is no circumstance where it would be appropriate for a man to offer 'help', unprompted, to a young girl shopping for bras and every sensible, decent person knows that.

Men should stay completely out of teenage girl's bra shopping. It is mind blowing that this needs to be said to you.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 08/08/2025 09:17

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

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So you can see how his actions might make a nervous teen embarrassed and uncomfortable but then immediately follow up with ’he wasn’t behaving inappropriately’. His actions were inappropriate! You’ve literally said it yourself.

Why are some people acting so wilfully stupid. Some quest to appear so kind, progressive and open minded brains are falling out all over the (M&S) shop?

GiantTeddyIsTired · 08/08/2025 09:17

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 09:00

Maybe - but creating a pile on on a specific and easily identifiable individual based on the say so of an anonymous person whose story is riddled with holes is a totally irresponsible and reprehensible way to make that point.

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You keep bringing trans into this - but this is a sex based issue. Any man approaching a lone teenage girl and offering help in the lingerie department is inappropriate. What he was wearing, how he perceives himself isn't the issue. His sex is the issue.

AnSolas · 08/08/2025 09:18

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 08:45

Of course it matters. Because the whole inappropriateness hinges on claims that the employee approached a lone teenager to ask if she needed help.

The only ‘proof’ of that is the claim of an anonymous mother who, assuming the anonymous Twitter handle is actually her, clearly has a longstanding axe to grind against trans people. So if the mother’s story is riddled with more holes than Swiss cheese then it becomes and even less of a solid basis to publicly shame and smear a (probably entirely identifiable) person for doing their job.

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So you are suggesting that M&S never investigated if a staff member was ever in contact with the girl at all?

The employee(s) involved were informed by the mother of a potential noncontact child sex abuse incident involving a member of their staff and decided not to investigate but rather engage in a communication process which had the potential to publicly shame and smear an employee?

And you dont see why M&S may have a safeguarding issue which needs to be fixed?

Soontobe60 · 08/08/2025 09:18

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 08:55

Her purported Twitter feed.

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The feed where she point out that she doesn’t mind this person working there, just doesn’t want male employees approaching her daughter to offer help in the underwear dept?
https://x.com/doejane1971/status/1952835079283048881?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

https://x.com/doejane1971/status/1952835079283048881?s=61&t=gKvvk-rWmOlYFGMZN8QVvQ

myplace · 08/08/2025 09:22

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

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It’s really sweet you want to think the best of everyone.
Basic risk assessment, though? Men shouldn’t approach unaccompanied teenagers. Those who do are suspect, because they shouldn’t. Let alone in the lingerie section.

For goodness’ sake, men are reluctant to approach an unaccompanied crying toddler for fear of being accused of something.
Yet this man thought it was ok to approach an unaccompanied girl in the lingerie section.

The girl was uncomfortable because his behaviour was suspicious, not because of a deformity or learning disability.

Don’t get in the way of women’s self preservation instincts. Don’t teach a girl that she should disregard her instincts about potentially predatory men. She should home them further, not subdue them.

Countdown2023 · 08/08/2025 09:23

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 09:00

Maybe - but creating a pile on on a specific and easily identifiable individual based on the say so of an anonymous person whose story is riddled with holes is a totally irresponsible and reprehensible way to make that point.

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No I am pointing a flaw in the training that M&S, and probably other retailers, clearly have. They are so fixated on rights of adults that they have forgotten other risk factors.

The staff member clearly misjudged the situation.

This maybe an issue across most of their stores, who knows?

Child protection and safeguarding needs to always take precedence over adults feelings.

Soontobe60 · 08/08/2025 09:29

Agix · 08/08/2025 01:57

If the shop assistant was a man who presented as a man, this wouldn't ever hit the papers. The mum and daughter would have said no, and moved on. Male shop assistants in clothes stores surely ask women of all ages if they need assistance all the time, including in lingerie or bra sections.

Especially as in many stores, assistants are told they HAVE to offer assistance to anyone who looks lost.

If a man who looked like a man who was obviously a shop assistant came up to any of us in the lingerie section and offered help, we'd just say no and (likely rightly) assume he was just doing his job, and understand that he must not have realised we were there for a bra fitting (because how could he? Ime lingerie sections have bras, pants, socks, pyjamas, night gowns, all sorts unrelated to bra fittings )

That's the transphobia and what's irrational here. People arnt all up in arms because a male employee offered assistance in the lingerie department. No one would give a flying fuck about that. They're up in arms because a trans employee offered assistance in the lingerie department .

If that young teen girl was more scared of the scenario than she would have been going to a male doctor/having a male lifeguard at the pool/any other manner of things that involve men, then that's because she's been taught to fear trans people specifically - and, as far as I know, men who are not trans ("cis") are way more dangerous to girls and women than trans people.

It's more likely that her strong reaction was because first bras can be embarrassing and nerve wracking... And pearl clutching mum has just made it worse.

Men who want to prey on women and girls don't put on a wig and dress to do it. They just bloody do it. Surely we all know that.

Edited

Oh dear - so much to unpick in this post.
1- statistically, the number of males identifying as female in the prison estate who have committed sex / violent crimes is proportionately much higher in comparison to males who do not identify as female.
2- show me a female teen who says they would be ok if ANY male approached them while they were looking at bras and I’ll show you a liar.
3 - not wanting a male who identifies as a female asking to help you choose a bra is NOT being ‘transphobic’.
4 - most teen females WOULD be uncomfortable seeing a male doctor for certain conditions. My DD would not see a male doctor for anything to do with contraception but was perfectly fine if she had an illness and needed antibiotics.
5 - describing a mother who advocates for their daughter as being ‘Pearl clutching’ is not the insult you think it is.

Coatsoff42 · 08/08/2025 09:30

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

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what man that you know would go up to a 14yo girl in a lingerie dept (where he isn’t working) and ask if she needs help?
Im thinking, only a creepy one.

No one male or female staff member has ever come up to me for any reason in an underwear department, ever.

AnSolas · 08/08/2025 09:33

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 09:01

But none of that happened did it?

The employee offered help. It was declined. They left. That’s it.

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It did.

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
I was thinking this.

@Notsosure1 did actual think about the situation and (almost) reached a conclusion.

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
It could have been offering to help as in find a particular bra

• in her size or

AnSolas · Today 08:57
A male walks up to a teen girl and offers to help so asks her what size her breasts are.

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
• colour preference, or

AnSolas · Today 08:57
A male walks up to a teen girl and offers to help so asks her what colour material would she like covering her breasts.

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
• locate a woman who is available to carry out a bra fitting.

AnSolas · Today 08:57
A male walks up to a teen girl and offers to help by finding someone to measure her breasts.

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
As long as he stayed out the changing rooms what’s the problem?

AnSolas · Today 08:57
You were thinking as long as the male stayed out the changing rooms what’s the problem?

Soontobe60 · 08/08/2025 09:33

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

Show quote history

No, just NO! Males, regardless as to how they identify or look, have NO business approaching teen females to ‘offer assistance’ in buying a bra. How you think this compares to someone with a birth mark, hearing impairment or learning disability is beyond belief. I’m embarrassed for you.

Countdown2023 · 08/08/2025 09:35

5 - describing a mother who advocates for their daughter as being ‘Pearl clutching’ is not the insult you think it is. @Agix @Soontobe60

Absolutely! I would rather be a pearl clutcher than someone who would enable or turn a blind eye to child protection

AnSolas · 08/08/2025 09:55

Notsosure1 · 08/08/2025 09:10

I agree the at one persons experience and views shouldn’t represent their entire demographic, but while I see how it might make nervous young girls embarrassed or uncomfortable, he wasn’t behaving inappropriately if all he did was ask if she needed help. If it was a cis male that still stands. They are there to ensure the customer receives the items they want to buy and buys them. It’s an assumption that M&S would have trained them to point the customers to the nearest available female employee for help in the changing room, if they are allowing them in there then that is completely out of order.

This world is made up of lots of different ppl who will make others ‘uncomfortable’. They may have an unsightly deformity on their face, or have slight learning difficulties which makes them a little slower to process communication but nevertheless able to do the job professionally and politely. They may be sight or hearing impaired and this might make a young person feel awkward.

People can find all sorts of characteristics uncomfortable to interact with, but as long as they aren’t in danger and are being treated with respect, what is the problem?

Show quote history

Notsosure1 · Today 07:55
I was thinking this.
It could have been offering to help as in find a particular bra
• In her size or
• colour preference, or
• locate a woman who is available to carry out a bra fitting.
As long as he stayed out the changing rooms what’s the problem?

Notsosure1 · Today 08:19
I think context is everything here.
Obviously if he was approaching her
• in a darkened corner and
• asking her how big her new breasts were and
• what type of bra would suit them,
• that is grotesque.
If on the other hand he merely asked if she needed any help - how is that predatory?

When woman can mean male (or female) person and that person can be predatroy for sexual thrills in any situation.

nomas · 08/08/2025 09:57

Why is the image on the article so sexualised?

TheKeatingFive · 08/08/2025 09:58

nomas · 08/08/2025 09:57

Why is the image on the article so sexualised?

Well it's an M&S bra model. I agree it's a bit weird, but I'm not sure what else they could have put there

nomas · 08/08/2025 10:00

TheKeatingFive · 08/08/2025 09:58

Well it's an M&S bra model. I agree it's a bit weird, but I'm not sure what else they could have put there

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The bra section at M&S perhaps.

Countdown2023 · 08/08/2025 10:04

nomas · 08/08/2025 09:57

Why is the image on the article so sexualised?

Very strange choice by Independent

MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/08/2025 10:06

myplace · 08/08/2025 09:08

There is no help a man can offer a teenage girl in a lingerie department inevitably

Without causing a scandal. That’s it.

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Yes. The mother's account is completely coherent and the M & S apology very clear.
It's always disappointing to see posters on Mumsnet trying to undermine women and mothers safeguarding their children. I get it's a thing for some people - denying the rights of women and girls to have boundaries runs through transgender ideology like a stick of rock.

He got caught out and the transactivists need to accept that. Time to start dealing with the numerous predators (judging by the Ministry of Justice's alarming statistics) and to stop policing and silencing women.

myplace · 08/08/2025 10:10

People are extraordinarily hard of thinking.

Fancy being able to think that a man approaching a young teen girl in a bra department is ok.

I mean, maybe ‘Excise me Miss, you dropped your purse!’, or ‘Excuse me, that’s the fire alarm we all need to evacuate the store, please follow the other customers to the exit.’.

CalmTheFuckDownMargaret · 08/08/2025 10:11

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 06/08/2025 15:54

Read the report. There is nothing at all to suggest that the employee was definitely trans and nothing saying that the employee was trying to get a look at the girl. A member of staff asking generally if help is required is very different to, 'A man wanted to cop a feel of my child.'

Remus, it’s very clear the assistant was trans because two women could tell they were looking at a man and not a woman. M&S haven’t said anything to the contrary in their reply to the mother. Why do you think that might be?

Men should not be staffing ladies’ lingerie departments and offering advice with teen bras, thongs, stockings, support garments, post-surgery bras etc etc etc etc etc. It should be obvious why it makes many women uncomfortable. This man was dressing as a woman and approaching a minor who was looking at bras. That is the sort of man that our instincts warn us to stay away from because it has all the marks of autogynophilia. Men hanging around bra departments used to be treated as weird - what could they possibly want? Now they can dress as women, approach 14 year old girls and people like you and this silly journalist will throw open your arms because you are just so kind and inclusive.

If I recall correctly from another article, the mother says she didn’t think he saw she was there due to a board in the way. The girl was approached while seemingly alone.

I’ll tell you why I know he’s bloody weird - because he thought it was ok to approach a teenager looking at bras while dressed as a fucking woman, that’s why. My husband, brothers, dad and son wouldn’t do that.

Jaws2025 · 08/08/2025 10:18

I must give off bad vibes or something because despite spending far too much time in M&S the staff never approach me about anything. It's not that kind of store.

PlanetJanette · 08/08/2025 10:21

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 08/08/2025 09:04

It wasn’t it. His inappropriate behaviour made her feel uncomfortable. THAT IS IT.

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A retail staff member asking a customer if they need help, in line with their employer's requirement that they proactively engage with customers, is not responsible if that act makes them uncomfortable.

All they can do is do their job, and then withdraw as soon as it is clear that their help is not needed or wanted. Which is precisely what they did.