To think that the "concern" coming from trans rights activists towards butch women is false?

[ArcheryAnnie]

Ever since the Supreme Court ruling clarifying the law around same-sex spaces such as loos, there's been a rash of claims by trans rights activists that butch (or otherwise gender nonconforming) women are now getting harassed in women's loos for not looking appropriately feminine. This claim was repeated last night on Radio 4's "In Touch" programme.

Except I don't believe it for a second. No TRA or ally ever gave a single shiny shit about butch women until the Supreme Court judgement, and I simply don't believe there's been an uptick of challenges to actual women using women's loos - and if there were, they wouldn't be to butch women, since there's generally very few points of similarity in the appearance of butch women with men who are attempting to present in a feminised way.

AIBU to be extremely sceptical of these claims, and to believe it's a very late-stage, piss-poor attempt to convince women that having single-sex spaces will be bad for them?

YANBU. We know TRAs don’t care about the comfort or safety of women except on their own terms, or things wouldn’t be where they are now.

YANBU.
I'd be interested if there are stories from women who have supposedly challenged "butch" women rather than vaguer stories about how it is suddenly happening.

If masculine looking women are being challenged in female spaces, it just confirms that women are uncomfortable with biological males being in female spaces.

If women were happy with males using their female spaces, nobody would be getting challenged.

It's no different to the "you don't look disabled" police when disabled people don't have an obvious disability.

Yeah, very convenient and I don’t believe it. A “butch” woman is just that - a woman. Women generally don’t fear being sexually assaulted by lesbians/butch women - they fear men. It’s not that complicated .

I’m a large masculine looking woman. I’ve never been challenged in public loos at all.
I have been called sir several times though, but by 20-30 year olds who I think assume I’m a transman. I always laugh it off.

I’d agree with you. I think, rather selfishly, they use others as a shield/ cause because the reality is middle aged men wearing fetish gear and invading women’s spaces is at best unsavoury. Gay people, intersex/ DSDs, trans men, butch women, children, they all get centred within the cause whenever it suits whether they want to be or not.

Genuinely I’m sure there are TRAs disappointed that there hasn’t been the promised spate of teen suicides following treatment guidelines changing hasn’t materialised.

I think the cause is desperate for someone brave and true to rally around as there seems to have been a lot of unpleasant chaps who make the papers and seem to cause a lot of reverse ferreting.

Sad times. 😉

YANBU of course. It’s like the deluge from TRAs after the SC ruling, thinking they’ve got some sort of ‘gotcha’ .. ‘Oh but what about a butch trans man in the ladies, isn’t HE going to hurt you, are you SCARED of him?’
No no we’re not. Because a butch lesbian / woman/ trans identified female is a woman. We know they are a woman, they look like a woman, unlike you you manly male fckers trying to get into women’s spaces.

Of course it’s on R4. I am so fed up with the constant pandering to TRAs. If they were truly concerned about women they’d all advocate for third spaces and let us feel confident that they won’t go using ours.

The idea that we can't tell the difference between a butch woman, and a trans identified man is so ridiculous that it's just not worth entertaining.

I guess I look fairly "butch" (although I don't know if I can use that word as I'm straight?) and I have been "challenged" in women's toilets a few times.

I put "challenge" in quotation marks because in fairness, while embarrassing it's never been aggressive.
Usually people back out and double check the sign on the door, or occasionally say "this is the ladies" to which I reply "yes, I am a woman" (and it's very clear from my voice that I am!)
People then usually profusely apologise (which is the most awkward part!)

I don't think there has or will be any increase in frequency of this with the law change and I am in favour of single sex spaces remaining single sex

A trans woman and a butch woman are pretty much polar opposites, I don't know how you could mistake one for the other....

Butch women are just women wearing trousers with short hair and no make-up.

I guess the repeats of old Top Of The Pops on BBC4 on Friday nights must really blow some people's minds. Sometimes there are men with long hair and women with short hair!

I’m not interested in the view point of any mentally ill
man who thinks he is a woman. If you can’t understand simple biology, I’ve no interest if your standpoint on anything else.

A trans woman and a butch woman are pretty much polar opposites, I don't know how you could mistake one for the other....

Totally this. Transwomen might look like the men they are, it's unavoidable, but they go out of their way to not look 'butch'.

And what's the argument anyway? Are they claiming that because some women might get challenged, we should just open the doors to all men??

The BBC should be ashamed of themselves for pandering to this nonsense. It doesn't make any sense, even if you believe in the ideology!

It's just another way to make women feel bad for having boundaries.

This is BS. If this was happening on a large scale, where are the news reports in mainstream media?

As someone who was once misgendered by my college professor, I cut my hair very short like a guys cut), I laughed it off.

I am a rational woman. Were I to be misgendered in a women’s toilet or locker room, I would have no problem, I would suck it up and show my ID. I would understand that these things happen sometimes and that it was for the greater good of women’s rights to safety and privacy.

Would you be upset if someone queried your right to be in the ladies? I’m not sure I would be (but I don’t look butch).

I was mistaken for a teenage boy once, from the back, when I had my Grade 2 & was wearing a big coat.
I turned round & laughed. The woman laughed too. All fine.

I would not be upset if they are just checking that I am, in fact, a woman

If they tried to suggest I should not be in the ladies due to my gender non-conformity (despite my female sex) I would be upset. This has literally never happened. I may look like a teenage boy at first glance but once I move or speak I am obviously an adult woman with a short haircut and masculine sense of style

In situations where a non-disabled gender neutral bathroom is available that is my personal preference, as it avoids awkward situations, but I defend women's rights to have women's bathrooms

I think YABU to be sceptical of claims purely because they challenge your worldview or make you feel uncomfortable, yes. Radio 4 is not exactly some YouTube account peddling conspiracy theories.

Butch women never look like men. Larger women tend to have the bust and hips to go with it and this is obvious even with very baggy clothes. Slender women are very obviously much more 'delicate' than men. Its BS.

I went to a comedy show where one of the comedians (sadly, I don't remember her name) was a 6 foot tall lesbian (I know that because a lot of her act was about being a 6 foot tall lesbian). She said that she often got funny looks and double takes in the ladies. I'm assuming this never went beyond funny looks or she would have mentioned it. She wasn't butch though. And I don't think anyone would have seriously mistaken her as a man beyond a momentary "gosh you're tall" moment.

Dingeldongdell:

I am a rational woman. Were I to be misgendered in a women’s toilet or locker room, I would have no problem, I would suck it up and show my ID. I would understand that these things happen sometimes and that it was for the greater good of women’s rights to safety and privacy.

Interesting that they now give a shit about butch women in toilets. I never heard a peep from anyone about what happens to the (many) transmen in female prisons if the Supreme Court had ruled TWAW but also then must hsve ruled TMAM.
Because I can promise you, not a single transman in prison is asking to be transferred to a male prison. And if they did, they would be in a huge amount of danger. Far more than anyone in a loo. Yet when the fight for this was on, not a single trans activist anywhere as far as I could see said a single thing about this. Because TMAW and therefore, if everyone is thruthful, that’s the reason they didn’t give a shit about them.

But I'm not sceptical of the claims because they "challenge my worldview" or because they make me uncomfortable. I'm sceptical of the claims because the people making them have never previously given a shit about butch women, and have not evidenced these new claims at all. There's just no evidence or plausibility for their claims either way.

Women do occasionally - and usually momentarily - get mistaken for boys and men. (A tall friend of mine was baffled about people suddenly getting out of her way when she was walking down the pavement, until she realised it was only after she'd got a short-back-and-sides.) However, I don't believe that the rate of this has increased since the Supreme Court ruling, and I don't believe that these women were mistaken for trans-identifying or cross-dressing men, not least because butch women don't generally wear the sort of clothes that men who want to present as feminine will wear.

(I habitually wear clothes marketed to men, as they are usually better made and more comfortable, but I've never been mistaken for a man because I'm too short and I've got a big rack...)

YANBU

’Butch’ women usually have short hair and no make up. They usually wear ‘men’s’ clothes. Transwomen almost always have long hair (I haven’t seen one yet with short hair) and usually wear a considerable amount of make-up, as well as dresses and skirts.

If people were being challenged in toilets on account of not looking feminine, TW wouldn’t be challenged, because although they don’t pass as women, they are performing femininity. Butch women do not perform femininity but are still usually identifiable as women. It’s not that we don’t want unfeminine people in our spaces- it’s that we don’t want MEN. Femininity and masculinity are neither her nor there. Sex matters.

You’re absolutely right that TRAs don’t give a fuck about butch women (or any women) so it’s ridiculously transparent to now be all ‘Oh, what about the poor butch women!’

FWIW I have seen butch women in gym changing rooms and loos and never yet seen one being challenged by anyone.

I am in the same position, male haircut, male clothes, no boobs, muscly - women don't really come more masculine looking than me -

young children often spontaneously refer to me as "he" on first glance, but adults then normally correct them and apologise.

Occasional shop workers call me "sir" then get upset and embarrassed and say sorry ( I never blame them, I know I look masculine)

Nobody who looks twice ever thinks I am a man