To think rich people steal money all the time and that’s often why they’re rich?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

We hear so much about “hard work” and “smart investments” but let’s be honest, so many rich people didn’t get wealthy by being ethical. From dodgy business practices to exploiting workers, tax dodging, insider deals and straight-up corruption, wealth often comes at someone else’s expense.

Governments bail out billionaires while ordinary people struggle to afford rent. CEOs cut wages and benefits while pocketing massive bonuses. Huge corporations find loopholes to avoid taxes while the rest of us get squeezed.

Obviously not every rich person is a thief but AIBU to think that a lot of them are? That the system is rigged in their favour and they keep getting richer by bending or outright breaking the rules?

Yes. It’s called capitalism. Certain individuals accumulate wealth by dispossessing others of the means and opportunity to keep/make wealth. We’re all mad to be apologists for this system. None of the multibillionaires have done it through hard work. Eg. Basic example, Jeff Besos/Amazon has dispossessed smaller and independent retailers of the ability to sell independent of Amazon, or on the high street.

“Tax fraud cost the Treasury an estimated £20bn in 2018/19 – 9x more than benefits fraud (£2.2bn)”

https://www.taxwatchuk.org/tax_crime_vs_benefits_crime/

I’m talking more about the very wealthy, the ones with resources, influence and connections far beyond what most people will ever have. The scale of their wealth means they can bend systems in their favour and that’s where you see the kind of behaviour I mentioned in my OP.

Op can you name some of these people?

Given we spend 1.23 trillion per year even if we recovered all defrauded tax it would barely make a difference ☹️

I too would like to know.

Same here, not bad for someone who left school with poor qualifications. Worked full time since 18, both daughters through private education. Both DH and I have 7 figure liquid assets plus house, no mortgage. ZERO help, just hard work, savings and wasting money on expensive cars etc. It can be done OP

Don't go confusing them with actual real life examples. It destroys the victim mentality

these 'loopholes' are available to everyone - be it inheritance tax planning, ISAs etc etc. But clearly you need to either research options, or pay for someone's advice, or you lack the money to need them.

This is a capitalist country. And I'd rather that than any of the socialist hellholes of the past century

I’m not looking to turn it into a list of individuals, my point is more about patterns and systems than singling out people. That said, examples are easy to find in the news: big name CEOs whose companies have faced tax avoidance scandals, billionaires whose wealth ballooned during crises while wages were frozen, or property developers who profit from loopholes while housing shortages worsen. It’s the behaviour and the system enabling it that I’m questioning.

But we need individual examples to decide whether we agree with your perception of them. Just give us 2 or 3 names?

Tax fraud it is not only committed by the rich. How about all those cash in hand jobs around. I dare to say that some on benefits also defraud this way.

I foolishly thought this thread would be about rich people 'stealing' money - silly me, what gave me that idea? Instead it's the usual jealous, chip on the shoulder rant. Yawn.

these people are unlikely to be "stealing money" their accounts will have been scrutinized 100X over.
will they have created trust funds for children will they have received a tax break for buying their parents a home maybe but none of that is theft.
having money allows you to make money especially when others are desperate to sell.

warren buffet just gave away 6 billion usd to various charities on saturday, something he does annually having donated over 152 billion in his lifetime.

I get that naming names might make it more concrete but it also risks turning this into a debate about individual personalities rather than the wider behaviour and structures I’m talking about. If you look at recent coverage around tax avoidance, exploitative labour practices or corporate bailouts, you’ll see plenty of examples in the public domain and that’s the kind of thing I’m referring to.

This. Tax fraud costs a lot more. The amount of benefit fraud is outweighed by unclaimed benefits.

tax avoidance, exploitative labour practices or corporate bailouts
none of these are illegal,theft, nor are corporate bailouts.

So you want us to believe people are stealing but won’t say who?

It’s not about asking anyone to “believe” me, the examples are widely reported and easy to find in mainstream news. My point is about the pattern of behaviour and the systems that enable it, not about putting a few individual names on trial in an AIBU thread. If you’re interested, a quick look at recent coverage on corporate tax avoidance or government bailouts will give you exactly the kind of cases I’m talking about.

Well examples then. What ‘loopholes’ have property developers benefited from? Or companies faced tax avoidance claims? (And avoidance is legal, evasion isn’t). Because I predict you’ll struggle.

You seem to be riven with envy that ‘the wealthy’ are out to get you and the cause of all your problems. Seek help.

Corporate tax avoidance. Go on then. This will be easy for you to give us a few examples, surely.

A totally meaningless post unless you actually state what you mean by “rich”. Billionaires? Millionaires? People on six figure salaries?

It’s pretty obvious. Nobody on a six figure salary is in a position to influence tax policy, whereas billionaires certainly are.

Tax avoidance is legal but that doesn’t mean it’s ethical, and it’s part of what I meant about the system being skewed in favour of those who can afford specialist advice. In terms of examples, there’s been plenty of coverage over the years: property developers benefitting from planning law exemptions or tax relief schemes, multinationals routing profits through low-tax jurisdictions, and large corporations using complex structures to reduce their tax bill. My point isn’t that every wealthy person does this but that these advantages aren’t equally available to everyone and that’s part of the imbalance.

Yeah, you're meant to be.

You can’t make the economy a closed loop system where everyone who trades or operates here has to be registered and only pay tax here. It would destroy international business if you did this, and greatly harm our tax take.

I understand the frustration that some people are obscenely rich and others piss poor, I really do. But you seem quite naive in thinking if we just demanded more they would stump it up. Businesses also can’t run off wafer thin margins where 90% of their profits are taxed.

The answer to our problems is not to continue the trajectory of unemployment and disability benefits while squeezing businesses to keep propping up the rise. It’s to get people back into work, stop the addiction to spending, and frankly accept the fact our golden days of cheap money, cheap housing and cheap food are gone.