To think that there is no hope here?

[Taxed]

52.6% of UK individuals are reliant on the State (that is 35 million people). Only 47.4% are net contributors. How did we get here?

AIBU to think that the UK is now a declining economy that will never recover if this continues to be the case?

I am 49 and a high earner (just shy of the top 1%). My husband is also a high earner and we are thinking of leaving. We don't know where but we know we have to as the situation in the UK is getting worse not better. The only thing that is keeping us here is our son, who is still in secondary school. I am actively encouraging him to consider a future outside of the UK.

I genuinely feel that being ambitious and successful is not worth it in the UK. People hate you for it and want to see you penalised. They think that whatever you do to earn the money it must be easy and a breeze. That you are greedy and need to be made to pay for doing well. Just last week, I heard that the government might be thinking of implementing a charge, payable by high earners, to access the NHS. Everything is about taxing the already heavily taxed even more and few want to face up to the fact that this is unsustainable when you have most of your people relying on the State to live.

People complain about the immigrants but they make up a tiny proportion of 35 million.

I feel disliked for doing well and just can't see a future here and it is making me angry and sad. I believe in having a welfare state, in helping those who are in need but 52.6%? The country is on its knees when most of its people are in need. That is like a developing country not a developed and thriving economy.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm just tired, sad and have just about lost hope of enjoying life in the UK.

OP, we have family and friends living in countries in Europe, Asia and North America. I can tell you that things are going downhill almost everywhere. Economies are struggling and the far right is rising. It’s a global, or at least western problem, not a UK problem. We briefly considered relocating last year, but as soon as you spend more than a few weeks in a new country, you begin to see the cracks.

There are some growing economies, but there you’d have to put up with corruption, slow or inexistent public services, inequality etc. These might not affect you directly if you’re relatively rich, but it can be draining to witness on a daily basis.

You were complaining quite forcefully that you didn't like it when m people on this thread said how they felt about things if they were higher earners.

If you don't live here you probably don't have a good picture about life in the UK at the moment. So you won't be in the best position to judge if their views are valid or not.

Really? You wish the wealthy would leave?
I don’t think people really understand what that would mean for a country.

Ah, lovely Mumsnet on a Monday morning…it warms the cockles of my heart.
I honestly don’t recognise any of the sentiment you talk about OP. I’m a higher earner (top 0.5%) and I happily and gladly pay my high taxes. I wouldn’t leave England if you doubled my salary…not even if you tripled it. I mean to be fair to you, no one but my husband knows how much I earn so I don’t face any of the jealousy or whatever it is you’re talking about in your post. I benefitted from a state education, I benefitted from free health care. I benefitted from child support when I was younger and poorer.
Teachers and nurses and police officers don’t work any less hard than I do..I would say most of them probably work harder. So yes, I’m happy to pay high taxes to fund their inflation based pay hike because somewhere along the line I fell in a lucky bush…and I never forget that.

Most of my family is in the US. I know the US very well. It is far from perfect but I can't say it is worse than the US.

I think many are living in La La Land if the think the UK is the great UK of yester years.

As for Dailymail. No the figures are from the Office for National Statistics and separately the Adam Smith Institute. To all those laughing why don't you do you own research on this figures rather than keep asking me. Whilst you are at it, find out also the UK's econ growth rates for the last two quarters. At the same time, find out what is the shortfall in the nation's treasury. Why not also look at policies that are on the table to deal with the terrible economic position we are in as a country.

Even Labour has admitted they are at the point on the Laffer Curve where it is a precipice that is waiting for them.

Focus on me rather than the real problem because focusing on me will make the problem go away, presumably.

If the cost of living wasn’t so high, the state handouts wouldn’t be needed.

But when the state sells its infrastructure off to the highest bidder (trains, energy, manufacturing, health service etc), when there is no limit on house prices and the rental market, when waiting times for the NHS are at an all time high and understaffing is rife- it means people cannot afford to live on just one salary alone, it means sick people can’t get better and back to work.

Rents for a 3-bed family home in many parts of the south east cost the same as the take home pay of the average UK salary. It’s unsustainable.

The fix isn’t less benefits, the fix is more affordable living.

This is the result of deliberate policy when Gordon Brown was chancellor to make the majority of people welfare dependant and fearful of a Tory government. It backfired spectacularly and we had 14 years of Tory rule during which they entrenched this approach. The result is not just welfare dependency. It is suppressed wages that have failed to keep track with our international competitors and an ever increasing tax burden on the bet contributors. It was financially illiterate, but deliberate.

Seems to be a run of these poor hard done by high earners just lately. Perhaps we could have a whip round for you. It must be awful having so much wealth and actually having to contribute something to society.

OP, do you object to paying tax and the rest of your argument is a smokescreen to justify wanting to move elsewhere to avoid it? You only pay the highest rate if you are high earning, and you say yourself your earnings are in the highest bracket. Don’t you think it’s fair you pay the tax? Isn’t it right that if you are fortunate enough to be extremely comfortable you can afford the tax to improve the lot of the infirm, old and children? You don’t suggest that the tax is particularly onerous, just that you object to paying it.

52% of adults are reliant on the state because of an aging population and because wages are low, and people are under employed - because they cannot afford to be in full time work because of child care costs/unavailability, because if medical issues, because they are carers, etc. UC is facilitating low wages because I guess the gov believes that businesses can't afford to pay an actual cost of living wage or it would push up inflation. I'm not an economist but I guess someone has worked it out...

It's all very well moaning about people being net beneficiaries but I think very few people actively choose to be poor. Complex situations leave people unable to earn more; some poorly paid jobs are vital. People can't magically put themselves in a higher tax bracket.

I'm going to guess the OP might be an immigrant from what she's said about always having been a net contributor (most UK people would get some help along the way even if it's free prescriptions or a student council tax discount). And that doesn't mean she's not allowed an opinion on the country she's made her home, but it does put a bit of a different spin on her plans to up and leave.

@Taxed I never claimed child benefits for that reason (knew I’d end up paying them back I didn’t need it for tax credits as I was always in work but just on mat leave). That could have been an option for you. Were you really not already doing a self- assessment anyway though- with a high income surely you have investment income you have to declare?

And honestly if you think things are better in the US you are completely mad. You do realise that everyone pays for healthcare there- and even if they do they have to fight with insurance companies to get the right (as opposed to the cheapest) treatment AFTER paying through the nose. Would you fancy a system akin to claiming after a car accident every time you need an X-ray.

Oh and if your son gets someone pregnant, depending on where you are, he might end up having to support the baby because getting an abortion is off limits.

Plus economic, racial and political unrest like nothing we have (eventually all the MAGA movement are going to realise that things haven’t improved under trump and god help them then).

@Taxed The makeup of those statistics is hugely important. There will be childless single people on relatively good wages but not necessarily higher rate who are net contributors. Equally, a two parent family with one higher rate taxpayer and on SAHP but multiple state-educated children, even more so if at least one family member requires a lot of NHS care, will not be net contributors. I'm a higher rate payer with no children. Most years I would imagine DH (also higher rate) and I probably are net contributors. But this year, the gynae treatment I've had probably cost the NHS more than I payed in tax and I am hugely thankful for it (private wasn't an option). So let's hope you and your family don't end up needing hugely expensive cancer treatment; there's a reason people go bankrupt in the US from healthcare. We were supposed to move there and out healthcare plan (bearing in mind we are two healthy individuals who look after ourselves) would have been £850 a month.

I think you're referring to these statistics, is that right?
https://www.adamsmith.org/state-reliance-index

Interesting that almost half of the 52% are those receiving state pension, which is double the number of those receiving universal credit/unemployed. It's not very clear what they mean by reliance, I need to have a further look into the study and methodology.

There are a lot of jobs that pay barely above minimum wage. I refuse to believe high earners are working 5,6,7 times as hard. With the high cost of housing, top up benefits are often needed. Even teachers and nurses are only on about 30k. I doubt your jobs is more important than those. It's easy for the rich to moan hut I bet they use all these services that are kept going by the low paid.

Pay teachers, nurses, police officers, bin men, care workers etc more. We need more of them. And proper training.

Pay NHS managers, very well paid train drivers that don't want reforms, council workers earning over £100,000 (or anyone in the public sector earning more than the PM) less. I'm sure there's a few more to add to both lists.

Then we can see where we stand. And who is worth taxpayer money and who isn't.

I think it is concerning. I'm an average earner and no economist but I'm baffled as to how we've got here. How have we ended up in a situation where people are working but cannot earn enough to pay for what is essentially a basic lifestyle (somewhere to live, paying their bills, food, a once a year holiday etc.) without state funded top ups.

This graph is US statistics but I bet similar is true of the UK. The gap between CEO salary and the average worker salary has increased massively over the years the graph is from 2009 but CEO pay has risen by about 1085% since 1978 compared with around 24% increase for an average worker. Of course CEOs have been and will always be paid more, rightly. But it's the gap between the two that's the issue for me.

So the government has had to step in to support people. I've no idea what the solution is, but in my simplistic view of things, it's not sustainable to be paying the high earners so so much more over time - the imbalance ruins things for everyone.

No wonder people think "why bother?" when people are getting taxed more and more and seeing services cut everywhere.

For me, it's not about the individuals experiencing hardship or ill health - that is absolutely what the welfare state is for. It's about the ever increasing disparity.

And it's such a short sighted view - the economy can't grow if the majority haven't got any money to spend.

So you want to move somewhere where there aren't as many pensioners because people die much younger and/or work until they're pushing 80??

Ok...

Yes, of course it bothers me. And yes, I do think you're morally suspect for 'pointing this out' from a position of huge privilege and self interest. You are concerned about the economy only in so far as you want even greater wealth than you already have. There's a tone of blame for those less fortunate than you and a self congratulatory note that does indeed suggest you think you are superior. Most people reliant on the state are too old to work, too ill to work, have disabilities or are carers, or are paid below the living wage. My suggestion would be to reduce the gap between the highest and lowest earners for a start, so that those at the bottom of the salary scale didn't need to rely on UC top ups. You'd earn less, but it would make a huge difference to the welfare bill.

So who is allowed to get help under your rules? People caring for disabled family? People who've lost their job through no fault of their own? People in low income who need top ups? Or someone else
Don't vote the Tories back in FFS. A big part of the reason our current government is so shit is because the Tories fucked over normal people for 14 years ( and no I didn't vote Labour).
Of course if you have money you'll want the Tories back so they look after you and keep screwing the poor.

Where did you see this? And did they define what they mean by “reliant on”? That is genuinely a shocking number.

Why shouldn't she complain? It's her money. She's worked for it. It's not her fault that Labour are increasing the liability to the taxpayer every day they are in office.

😂

Focus on me rather than the real problem because focusing on me will make the problem go away, presumably

Well, you posted about your problem, so thems the breaks.

I think many are living in La La Land if the think the UK is the great UK of yester years
And no-one, absolutely no-one has suggested this. Seriously, stop making shit up.

The door is that way >>>>>>>>>>>

I've said who I think should get help in this thread already.

There needs to be a viable centre right party if not the Conservatives. I'm voting as women died for us to be able to vote. And I'm not voting for a left wing party . So currently if not the Tories there's only one alternative.

My heart hurts for them, every day they have to wake up and carry the burden of being rich on their poor broken shoulders.