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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that just because you say something about Israel and Gaza does not mean that you should be threatened with arrest under the terrorism act?

482 replies

cakeorwine · 18/07/2025 18:59

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag

She had a sign saying "Free Gaza" and "Israel is committing genocide"

She was threatened with arrest under the terrorism act because a certain group that has been deemed to be a terrorist group also share those same views - and therefore the lady was supporting a terrorist group.

In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”

He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence.

I can think of many groups who share those same beliefs. Having that belief does not mean you support that group.

A Kent police spokesperson said: “Under the Terrorism Act it is a criminal offence to carry or display items that may arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation such as Palestine Action.”

Armed police threatened to arrest Kent protester for holding Palestinian flag

Officers accused Laura Murton who also had a sign saying ‘Free Gaza’ of supporting a proscribed organisation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
thepariscrimefiles · 19/07/2025 11:59

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 20:10

The law says it does. Why aren't you understanding that? It doesn't matter whether you think it's fair or not. Laws are there to govern conduct.

Surely you are only breaking the law if you are a member of a proscribed organisation or you have placards supporting a proscribed organisation or you are shouting about your support for the proscribed organisation? Expressing support for the Palestinians or having a placard that says 'Free Gaza' is not a criminal offence.

Swiftie1878 · 19/07/2025 12:03

Dangermoo · 18/07/2025 19:33

You really are trying to simplify all of this. It's too complex for that.

No, it really isn’t.
The issues being protested about are complex.
Being allowed free speech is not complex. Not complex at all.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:14

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 11:35

Does it?

What happened to their "reasonable grounds to suspect"?

Do you think that if this person had refused to give their details, then the police would have arrested them under Section 12 of the UK Terrorism Act.

Do you then think that the CPS would have prosecuted them?

And what basis would that prosecution have been on?

The police had no grounds to suspect this person of "Expressing support for a proscribed organisation"

Yes it seems sensible to me. That's why I said it.

I've already explained about the reasonable suspicion/identity checks.

Why on earth are you asking me to speculate on hypothetical situations that we will never know or indeed need to know the answer to because none of that is going to happen.

You also can't credibly say what the Police thought or suspected because you aren't them and you weren't there.

You're clutching at straws and starting to look desperate I'm afraid. Feel free to have the last word but I disagree with you and like I said before feel you aren't helping yourself with some of your responses.

thepariscrimefiles · 19/07/2025 12:15

2024onwardsandup · 18/07/2025 21:11

Not looks. Making a point that it seems more likely a man than a woman.

and yet in the newspaper article on thIs thread everyone is saying she. Reflecting compelled speech - which is but another side of the coin of what is being criticised

Her name is Laura and the article refers to her as 'she' so why would I call her 'he'?

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:17

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:14

Yes it seems sensible to me. That's why I said it.

I've already explained about the reasonable suspicion/identity checks.

Why on earth are you asking me to speculate on hypothetical situations that we will never know or indeed need to know the answer to because none of that is going to happen.

You also can't credibly say what the Police thought or suspected because you aren't them and you weren't there.

You're clutching at straws and starting to look desperate I'm afraid. Feel free to have the last word but I disagree with you and like I said before feel you aren't helping yourself with some of your responses.

There is the video that was posted of the interaction

You can see for yourself what they said:

In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence.

OP posts:
Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 12:22

How can you say discussing the protests is irrelevant to the OP! Is she just holding up a Gaza sign for the fun of it. A very insular thread this is.

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:27

The Judge who imposed the judgement on proscribing PA made a key point

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ammori-judgment-revised.pdf

It will remain lawful for the claimant and other persons who were members of PA prior to proscription to continue to express their opposition to Israel’s actions in Gaza and elsewhere, including by drawing attention to what they regard as Israel’s genocide and other serious violations of international law. They will remain legally entitled to do so in private conversations, in print, on social media and at protests

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ammori-judgment-revised.pdf

OP posts:
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:28

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 12:22

How can you say discussing the protests is irrelevant to the OP! Is she just holding up a Gaza sign for the fun of it. A very insular thread this is.

It's about what is lawful and unlawful under Section 12

Look at the judgement I just posted - and note what the Judge said is still lawful

OP posts:
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:32

This letter explains it more clearly

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/letter-of-protest-to-the-kent-police/

It basically outlines everything that has been said on here

OP posts:
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:35

And this is the letter sent to Kent Police

Dear Kent Police,
We write to express our most vehement criticism and disapproval at the threatened arrest of one of our members, Laura, for a lawful protest action.
To point out why Laura’s actions were lawful, we shall briefly recall the facts of the incident.

The Facts
Laura was peacefully protesting near a roundabout in Canterbury. She did not enter the road, nor obstruct traffic in any way. As part of the protest she attached to a streetlamp a sign stating that ‘Israel is committing Genocide’ and held aloft a separate placard that stated, ‘Free Gaza’. She also held a Palestinian flag for the duration of the protest. Two armed officers then arrived and informed Laura that her protest was unlawful, on the basis that it was reasonably suspected that she had expressed an opinion or belief supportive of a proscribed organisation (s12 of the Terrorism Act 2000).

It was mentioned by the two officers during the interaction that phrases including Free Gaza and Free Genocide constituted sufficient basis for reasonable suspicion under s12. Officers then threatened to arrest Laura on those grounds unless she supplied identifying details to the two officers. Having supplied the relevant details, the encounter between the two parties then concluded without any arrests having been made.

The Law
We are outraged by this interaction between Police and citizen and consider it little more than a blatant act of intimidation, given the multiple legal errors and factual mistakes conducted by the two officers in question.

Firstly, it must be emphasised that we are not in possession of any information concerning how Kent Police have been briefed regarding their duties under the Terrorism Act and on what constitutes support for a proscribed organisation. Beyond expressing disapproval, we also hope this letter will serve as a guide on what the law is in the UK, so future legal overreaches by the police can be avoided and citizens better left to enjoy their right to freedom of Assembly, guaranteed under the European Convention on Human Rights.

Proceeding to determine what the law states, s12 of the Terrorism Act 2000 sets out that it is unlawful if someone ‘expresses an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation’. It must also be conceded that Palestine Action is, as asserted by the Officers, currently a proscribed organisation under Schedule 2 of the 2000 Act.

Expressing an opinion or belief that is supportive of an organisation is a rather vague and unclear provision when taken in isolation. As an example, hypothesising that an animal rights group committed to violent killings was proscribed under the Terrorism Act, there might be an understandable degree of confusion in police forces as to whether support for animal rights in general could be taken as supportive of a proscribed organisation, or whether something more was needed to establish criminal liability.

As such, it is useful to turn to recent case law when trying to better understand the meaning of s12.
The Court of Appeal, in ABJ v REX, recently provided a guide to s12. In what amounts to the most comprehensive statement of the relevant law, Baroness Carr established that:

‘it is necessary to consider the terms of s. 12(1A) itself. The expression must be of an opinion or belief that is supportive of the “organisation”. To express an opinion or belief that is shared by the organisation is not the same thing as to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of the organisation. The organisation does not merely exist to promote a (terrorist) belief. It exists to promote that belief by the means identified in the definition of terrorism in s. 1 of the TA . The offence requires the expression of an opinion or belief that is supportive of Hamas, and not merely that it may be supportive of the achievement of aims which Hamas shares’

Although the reference here was to Hamas, the principles it sets out are applicable to proscribed organisations more generally. It affirms that any statement, to amount to support for a proscribed organisation, must be concerned with the organisation itself. It is not enough for a person to express a belief or opinion that a proscribed organisation also embraces, whether as ideology, policy or anything else.

Applying this logic to Palestine Action, and Laura’s case, there was nothing in Laura’s conduct that could have given rise to a reasonable suspicion that she expressed an opinion or belief supportive of Palestine Action. Firstly, when questioned by Officers, Laura clearly and without ambiguity set out that she did not support Palestine Action. There was nothing in the signs or flag that Laura held which call the honesty of this statement into doubt.

The assertion that Gaza should be free is a direct reference to the ongoing occupation of that territory, with the State of Israel possessing near total control over the borders, airspace, movement of essentials (like food and water) and supply of electricity into Gaza. The occupation is unlawful under international law, as set out by the ICJ. It is also highly repressive, involving an extreme degree of genocidal violence alongside extensive physical and digital surveillance.

Hence the calls for a free Gaza do not concern Palestine Action, but merely express support for an aspiration, namely the aspiration that all Gazans should be entitled to live free of violence and occupation, in accordance with what the tenets of international law demand.

True enough Palestine Action, if asked, would likely endorse this aspiration. However, this is not of any relevance to Laura’s conduct. She made no reference to supporting the organisation and its methods in the manner required for criminal liability under s12 of the Terrorism Act. She only expressed an opinion likely shared by Palestine Action, which cannot constitute evidence of criminality under the Terrorism Act. There is therefore nothing here upon which a reasonable suspicion could be based.

The same is true of Laura’s sign stating that Israel is committing Genocide in Gaza. It should be recalled at this point that while the presence or absence of genocide in any given place is necessarily a matter of opinion, all major civil society organisations (including Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch), the United Nations (through the work of Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese), and a near-unity of genocide scholars have all concluded that a genocide is occurring in the Gaza Strip.

To allege that saying ‘Israel is committing genocide’ amounts to an opinion that is supportive of Palestine Action again confuses an opinion shared by Palestine Action with a belief that supports Palestine Action. Laura, in her sign mentioning the Israeli genocide, did not make any reference to Palestine Action whatsoever. As such, the sign she held cannot constitute evidence for a s12 offence.

Lastly, a Palestinian Flag is not evidence of a s12 offence. It is, in lieu of evidence indicating otherwise, a symbol of Palestinian nationalism and solidarity, much as the Union Jack is a symbol of British nationalism and patriotism. A Palestinian flag flying therefore cannot, in general, be taken as an endorsement of any one organisation,. It would make the mistaken assumption that Palestine is indissociable from a single organisation like Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

In Laura’s case, there is no surrounding evidence that suggests, by waving the Palestinian flag, Larua was attempting to communicate any kind of endorsement of Palestine Action. Indeed, as already established, the signs she produced were not concerned in the slightest with Palestine Action.

By extension, Laura’s waving of the Palestinian flag must be considered an expression of Palestinian nationalism and not support for a proscribed organisation under s12.

Given neither Laura’s speech, signage, nor flag demonstrated any support for Palestine Action, we consider it a grave abuse of police powers to threaten arrest on the basis that an officer held a ‘reasonable belief’ that she expressed an opinion supportive of that organisation.

There was no evidence on which such a reasonable belief could be founded. Terrorism convictions under s12 result in serious jail time (up to 14 years) and we are outraged that Kent police considered an arrest (and potential future charges) under the Terrorism Act a proper response to what was an entirely legal act of solidarity with the Palestinian people.

Moreover, threatening to make such an arrest if identity details were not provided has no basis in law, given individuals are under no general obligation to supply their identity to police. We therefore demand that Laura’s case be dropped and a note be provided that she is no longer being investigated for any wrongdoing by Kent Police.

We would like to round off this letter by reminding Kent Police of their ethos of policing by consent. Set out in the Peelian principles, Kent Police are obliged to uphold ‘absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws’.

The law, as set out above, cannot sustain arrests based on Palestinian solidarity, or anti-Israeli feeling, alone. As such, regardless of any orders or sentiment that may have been communicated by the government, arrests made on these bases cannot be justified. Impartial adherence to law demands lawful Palestine protests be treated as such and we demand the police adhere to this premise in their future policing of Palestine protests.

Sign on to Thomson Reuters suite of products and services.

https://uk.westlaw.com/

OP posts:
YourOnMute · 19/07/2025 12:37

Free Gaza, as in the Gaza currently illegally occupied by another State, which is illegal under international law?
Wonder if she held up Free Ukraine would it be different?
Or Free Ireland? (Not suggesting it's illegally occupied, just an example).
And if so, why?

MrsSkylerWhite · 19/07/2025 12:37

MiloMinderbinder925 · 18/07/2025 19:04

This government are very draconian. They seem to be erasing freedom of speech and the freedom to protest. Arresting elderly ladies and people holding up signs is not a good use of police time.

Elderly? (Missing point ….).

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:39

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:27

The Judge who imposed the judgement on proscribing PA made a key point

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ammori-judgment-revised.pdf

It will remain lawful for the claimant and other persons who were members of PA prior to proscription to continue to express their opposition to Israel’s actions in Gaza and elsewhere, including by drawing attention to what they regard as Israel’s genocide and other serious violations of international law. They will remain legally entitled to do so in private conversations, in print, on social media and at protests

I know I said I was leaving but just wanted to thank you for proving my earlier point.

Unless the person in question was identified then the police would have no way of knowing if she was in fact a member prior to proscription and therefore acting legally in accordance with your post. It was crucial for them to establish her identity given what you've outlined.

WhereIsMyJumper · 19/07/2025 12:44

Haven’t bothered to RTFT because I would imagine it’s devolved into Israel vs Palestine which doesn’t seem to be the point of the original OP.

Anyway, the thing that annoys me so much about restrictions on free speech is that they aren’t applied equally to both sides. If you’re going to arrest someone for saying ‘free Palestine’ then you should also arrest someone for flying an Israeli flag. Which is preposterous.

So no, that woman shouldn’t have been arrested for saying words. And I say that as someone who is pretty on the fence about the whole situation.

Gwenhwyfar · 19/07/2025 12:44

Madness. If someone calls for a united Ireland are they then sharing the same view as the IRA and supporting a terrorist group??? If you call for communism are you then supporting the Baader Meinhof terrorist group, and so on and so on?

Quite apart from whether Palestine Action is actually a terrorist group in the first place.

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:45

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:39

I know I said I was leaving but just wanted to thank you for proving my earlier point.

Unless the person in question was identified then the police would have no way of knowing if she was in fact a member prior to proscription and therefore acting legally in accordance with your post. It was crucial for them to establish her identity given what you've outlined.

No it doesn't prove your point.

She was doing something that was lawful. The police said that what she was doing was unlawful

"In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence."

The judgement says that what she was doing was lawful.

There appears to be Case Law to back up that point as referenced in the letter I posted.

OP posts:
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:47

WhereIsMyJumper · 19/07/2025 12:44

Haven’t bothered to RTFT because I would imagine it’s devolved into Israel vs Palestine which doesn’t seem to be the point of the original OP.

Anyway, the thing that annoys me so much about restrictions on free speech is that they aren’t applied equally to both sides. If you’re going to arrest someone for saying ‘free Palestine’ then you should also arrest someone for flying an Israeli flag. Which is preposterous.

So no, that woman shouldn’t have been arrested for saying words. And I say that as someone who is pretty on the fence about the whole situation.

TBF, we've managed to avoid those derail attempts.

It's mostly been about what "Expressing support for a proscribed organisation looks like"

OP posts:
Livelovebehappy · 19/07/2025 12:49

cakeorwine · 18/07/2025 19:10

Do you think saying "Free Gaza" means you should be threatened with arrest under the terrorism act?

Yes. And about time this was stamped down on.

Livelovebehappy · 19/07/2025 12:53

YourOnMute · 19/07/2025 12:37

Free Gaza, as in the Gaza currently illegally occupied by another State, which is illegal under international law?
Wonder if she held up Free Ukraine would it be different?
Or Free Ireland? (Not suggesting it's illegally occupied, just an example).
And if so, why?

Edited

I think probably now coming down hard due to increasing anti semitic hostility in the UK from certain sections. The Jewish community are under attack daily so the whole pro Palestinian thing needs to be brought under control. Not the same issue with Ukraine.

pointythings · 19/07/2025 12:55

thepariscrimefiles · 19/07/2025 12:15

Her name is Laura and the article refers to her as 'she' so why would I call her 'he'?

All the irrelevant calling out of this person's gender identity is either intended to derail the thread (look, it's a transwoman and therefore inherently bad) or is GC virtue signalling.

Fact is, she did nothing illegal and the police misinterpreted the law. Mistakes happen.

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:55

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 12:45

No it doesn't prove your point.

She was doing something that was lawful. The police said that what she was doing was unlawful

"In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence."

The judgement says that what she was doing was lawful.

There appears to be Case Law to back up that point as referenced in the letter I posted.

It entirely proves my point about whether it was sensible for the police to identify her. You've literally outlined that being a previous member made the circumstances and possible outcome very different.

I'm sorry but you're being disingenuous now.

cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 13:02

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/07/2025 12:55

It entirely proves my point about whether it was sensible for the police to identify her. You've literally outlined that being a previous member made the circumstances and possible outcome very different.

I'm sorry but you're being disingenuous now.

This is the judgement on what Section 12 means - and how the police misinterpreted when they said that what she was doing gave them reasonable grounds that she was expressing support. They did not ask her if she was a member of the group

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/ABJ-v-Rex-and-BDN-v-Rex-judgment.pdf

  1. As the judge was also careful to emphasise, there must be proof of an invitation of support for the proscribed organisation. This is to be distinguished from the (mere) expression of personal beliefs, or an invitation to someone else to share an opinion or belief, conduct that does not fall within the ambit of section 12(1)(a) offence.” (emphasis in original)

  2. Thus, as set out above, in order to convict, the jury had to be sure i) that the organisation was a proscribed organisation; ii) that the defendant used words which in fact invited support for that proscribed organisation; and iii) that the defendant knew at the time that they did so that they were inviting support for that organisation.

First, it is necessary to consider the terms of s. 12(1A) itself. The expression must be of an opinion or belief that is supportive of the “organisation”. To express an opinion or belief that is shared by the organisation is not the same thing as to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of the organisation.

The organisation does not merely exist to promote a (terrorist) belief. It exists to promote that belief by the means identified in the definition of terrorism in s. 1 of the TA. The offence requires the expression of an opinion or belief that is supportive of Hamas, and not merely that it may be supportive of the achievement of aims which Hamas shares.

That is an important distinction which will require the court deciding the case to pay careful attention to what was said and done, the circumstances in which that happened, and the meaning which the speaker intended to convey.

  1. It is also essential to recognise that s. 12(1A) does not prevent a person from holding or merely expressing an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation.

What is required in addition is expression of an opinion or belief supportive of a proscribed organisation, being at least reckless as to whether a person “to whom the expression is directed will be encouraged to support the organisation”.

It is not only the expression of the opinion or belief which must be proved, but the circumstances in which it is expressed must be such as to satisfy the requirements of s. 12(1A)(b)

Microsoft Word - ABJ and BDN jdgt-final_2

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/ABJ-v-Rex-and-BDN-v-Rex-judgment.pdf

OP posts:
cakeorwine · 19/07/2025 13:08

Was she expressing an opinion supportive of Palestinian Action?

No - and it is not illegal to express an opinion that is a shared belief

It's also not illegal to express support for Palestinian Action unless the person to whom it is addressed will be encouraged to support them

It seems that some posters think it's perfectly acceptable in today's society for armed police to threaten people under the Terrorism Act unless they tell them who they are.

I hope that protestors become aware of case law, Section 12 and can quote it at the police when they threaten them with arrest. And film it as well so we can all see how the police misuse their powers.

We don't want to live in a police state.

OP posts:
YourOnMute · 19/07/2025 13:10

Livelovebehappy · 19/07/2025 12:53

I think probably now coming down hard due to increasing anti semitic hostility in the UK from certain sections. The Jewish community are under attack daily so the whole pro Palestinian thing needs to be brought under control. Not the same issue with Ukraine.

But either law is applied equally to all or not at all.

Dangermoo · 19/07/2025 13:15

YourOnMute · 19/07/2025 13:10

But either law is applied equally to all or not at all.

That's a bit rich. Braverman was spot on in her obs around policing the protests.

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