To think therapy culture is creating narcissists?

[ThatIcyAnt]

It’s one thing to understand your trauma. It’s another to weaponise it as a reason to never change. “This is just how I am” isn’t growth, it’s avoidance in a self-help disguise.

Surely one problem with therapy is that the therapist is only going on what they are told so if the client has no insight or lies to themselves they won't be helped.l by the process.

So if you go to a therapist and say for example that you were badly bullied at school, but the reality is that you were horrible and unkind and the other children were defending themselves and/or turned against you because of your behaviour then the therapist might give you wrong strategies.

But aren't you doing the same thing and blaming your inability to sustain relationships on your ex?

The people who go into therapy are usually victims of people who should be in therapy. The people that need to self reflect and sort their crap out tend not to go to therapy; they drive other people into it.

We can all do narcissistic things. People who are high up on this continuum have always existed in their plenty. We didn't have the language. Having the language for this now, particularly when you start to realise how much you have endured,how messed up it is and how you've resultantly been a magnet to fundamentally disordered people; well it's life changing.

People who aren't in this place and don't have the awareness, or maybe had a very healthy upbringing, won't even understand any of this and are going to eyeroll.

The only time I'd agree with the post is if you have an appalling therapist who is incompetent, or you have couples therapy situations where one partner who is quite messed up can go under the radar and even be emboldened through the therapy to behave more appallingly to their partner behind closed doors.

God I agreem I went out with some very nice 29-35 year olds we had a couple of days together (I'm 51). Somehow they got on the topic of trauma and I said I was lucky that I hadn't had any in my life, whereas they all said they had.
I've know one of them for years and she said that she disagreed with me and (with my permission) said I had been through several things (being sectioned, been in an abusive (not for that long) relationship, parents divorced, chronic illness, partner being unfaithful) not fun but not "traumatic" imo. That surely is things like severe bullying, death of a child or partner /parent at a young age, awful violence, abuse, neglect, war, being a refugee, termknal illness, terrible accident, severe disability.

The sort of things they thought of trauma were failing some exams, a grandparent dying aged 83, a car crash where no one was badly hurt, being unable to pay a bill (but getting it paid over a few months), being sacked for not turning up to some shifts..

I had to rearrange my face quite a lot.

A lot more favour THAN that.

I’m not sure I agree.

Therapy and self reflection has its place and has probably resulted in progressive movements such as me too. People are no longer willing to put up with shit because ‘put up and shut up’. Boundaries are good and a way to take back personal power and free yourself from toxic family dynamics.

Im extremely wary of people who aren’t supportive of this as it feels like a reason for people to continue to put up with poor behaviour.

I have never heard a therapist (I have friends who are therapists as well as having been to a few) use the term narcisisst. Tbh I have only ever really heard it on Mumsnet.

Agreed, my mum is one of the biggest narcissists I've ever met and she's had more therapy than any human needs. She has the ability to make herself the victim in every situation and all the therapists have believed her and validated it, making her never change. I'm not surprised though when she was sectioned for schizophrenia, she managed to convince the doctors she was okay to come home even though she was hallucinating.

Part of the issue is thinking that therapy is about the therapist giving you strategies. Yes in behavioural modalities that may happen but in ongoing relationship based therapy, what the client tells you is just part of the work, most of the work is actually careful observation and experience of the client in their relationship with the therapist.

Patterns present in your behaviour with others also turn up in the therapy room, because wherever you go, there you are. A good therapist will be able to recognise the dynamics in the relationship and their observation of how you speak about whatever, not just what you say, and use that therapeutically. In doing so you can get underneath what’s being said and work with the person rather than their story.

I remember going to a free therapy session once when I was at uni.

My parents have always shown unconditional love and support, but they are just very critical of my choices. I had always struggled to live up to my parents expectations and they would always make up excuses as to why I should not come home (mum was working through her own issues at the time).
However, it was coming up to Christmas and I knew I would be coming home to criticism about my degree and marks. So I thought I'd give this free session a crack and asked how to deal with the past hurt/anger and those comments.
And pretty much the first advice from the therapist's lips was: "Have you considered going no contact?". Then some crap about imagining my emotions as shapes.

Like what? Going no contact is such an extreme response in my opinion?

If she was going for reserve psychology it worked, because I ignored her advice and now my parents and I have a much better relationship as they've just accepted that I'm an adult who makes decent choices most of the time now.

My last therapist was the biggest narcissist I’ve ever met.

Tony Soprano got to the bottom of what was causing his panic attacks though, so in that respect therapy was successful. Therapy can't stop people committing crimes, it's true.

Perhaps the shock of the idea of 'no contact' helped you to realise what was important to you in your relationship with your parents, so in that respect it did help.

Although one free therapy session probably isnt a great idea unless the therapist is highly skilled in single session therapy.

No therapist would use those terms. Those are the kind of ‘nonsense armchair psychology’ terms thrown around on here.

I agree with what you say bit would add

Good therapy includes introspection/analytical processes BUT these are the forerunners for growth. Good therapy’s would use the analysis to change/shift forward.

Simply put - I am scared of dogs so I avoid the park

I am scared of dogs because ‘X’ happened to me as a child. The impact of this is ‘Y’

….if you stop at this point in therapy then you will get ‘it’s how I am’. A person has to want to change-adapt somehow…..

I am scared of dogs but if I do this instead I may be able to go to the park - this is where the hard work is necessary for change

Ues there are far too many people on therapy who do not really need to be there. Just because you’ve had an awful time and label it as traumatic does not mean you need treatment….a lot of things are treatable eg OCD - if you claim g PIP and have a career would you be motivated change - which is necessary for the treatment to be effective.

I've said similar before and been flamed for it. The above is based on my experience as a professional accredited therapist.

I work in an inner city with serious levels of deprivation and last time I spoke out some MNetters just could not believe that people claim for this sort of stuff. People ask for letters of support for their PIP/Criminal injuries claims on a regular basis.

True narcissists don’t go to therapy. It’s very rare - they will not choose to subject themselves to self reflection or challenge. Narcissism is an over-used, trendy term that’s thrown around.

There are lots of people with personality disorders that do present to services. Some diagnosed some not.

There are notoriously difficult to treat and can cause havoc in therapy- imagine trying to form a therapeutic relationship with one.

Some people with PD - genuine ones struggle to function and can end up in crisis.

Simply put - I am scared of dogs so I avoid the park
I am scared of dogs because ‘X’ happened to me as a child. The impact of this is ‘Y’
….if you stop at this point in therapy then you will get ‘it’s how I am’. A person has to want to change-adapt somehow…..

And I find people are often now coming to therapy with their labels already in place, self diagnosed and firmly held as the reason x, y and z are hard for me. A lot of time can be spent unpicking those labels and challenging “it’s how I am” and folk get fed up because you’re not fully validating them. So they leave, unhappy, and reinforced in their own belief that they just can’t be helped.

Therapy is meant to be hard work, it’s very hard to examine and challenge beliefs that have helped you manage day to day, and to see who you might be if those beliefs changed. It takes time, and trust, to understand how your past impacts your present and to figure out a more healthy way of being. Throw away phrases and the language of DARVO and boundaries etc isn’t therapy. Therapy is gaining insight into why - and crucially being able to set those things aside to make real change.

It’s not a friendly chat where someone helps you feel better about yourself, it should be a robust, honest relationship on both sides working together. That kind of therapy is absolutely life changing.

No

It was something like 6 free sessions a semester or year of uni, I cant quite remember.

Yes, I guess I found the advice stupid enough to wonder why I wouldn't keep up contact with my parents for just wanting me to do well in life 😂

Honestly I think they feed into a lot of people's delusions.

My mum is diagnosed narcissistic and schizophrenic, she loves therapists because she can easily convince them she's always the victim and they will play into it. (The therapy was before she was diagnosed as that was only 2 years ago)

I believe one of the huge issues is that any person can go off and practice in therapy. The regulation is poor. I've seen a few very questionable and unsuited people practicing. They shouldn't be allowed out their house tbh.

I've seen some very scary people in hospital - whilst very physically ill. Scary people working in MH. Not the patients.

The stories I read here validate the above. It's very dangerous if someone is incredibly vulnerable to the concept this therapist is all knowing.

As already pointed out; a true personality disordered person won't go for therapy. Unless it's a means to manipulate someone or gather more tools to abuse someone else, like a partner.

I have an excellent and incredibly aware therapist I found myself years ago after the scary duds I reference.

The worst part is that this woman is very highly qualified and experienced (chartered clinical psychologist who’s done that her entire working life and is hitting 60 now). I saw her privately but she also has a very senior position in the NHS alongside and is involved in teaching, etc. She’s not just one of those types who did an evening course ‘cos she fancied a change once her kids left home FFS.

An acquaintance of mine has just qualified as a counsellor.

This is someone who is the most emotionally manipulative person you could ever meet. They are very adept at using 'psychological' language and very convincing generally - they are skilled at gaslighting, for instance.

Their counselling qualification has now given them free range to gorge themselves on other's misery. Already they are talking about "how they've helped someone to see how unwell they are". It's disgusting to hear.

Thing is - and this is why I am frustrated - this is a newly qualified counsellor who has very recently been supervised, received mentorship, etc. My feeling is that they've manipulated and hoodwinked the tutors and supervisors.

So, yes, therapy culture might be 'creating narcissists', but there is now one more narcissist free to practice, in the UK, as a counsellor. There's nothing I can do about this, but I find it very, very disturbing.