When ‘tradition’ becomes a clear display of hatred

[WhereIsMyJumper]

Am I being unreasonable to be aghast at the bonfires in NI? Burning the tri-colour as well as an effigy of a migrant boat. How can this be referred to as ‘tradition’??

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/firefighters-take-two-hours-to-extinguish-controversial-bonfire-topped-with-migrant-boat-and-irish-flag-in-co-tyrone/a1274789953.html

14 years of Tory misgovernment.

Theres a section of society that use any excuse, whether it's 12th July, immigrants, whatever, to run riot. They've a thread of bitterness and viciousness that seems to be cultural. They blame anyone and anything for their own shortcomings.

But it isn’t Irish people doing this!

They identify as ‘British’

I'm from a very orange family and have never heard it called that. It's just The Twelth, as in what are you doing for the twelfth? Are you on holiday for the twelfth fortnight?

I hardly think burning effigies of the pope or nationalist/is Irish politicians is "political jest".

Obviously I'm referring to the NI bonfires, rather than your village one. However, the poitcal figures whose effigies are being burnt in your village are also people and I really don't think it's appropriate regardless of how abhorrent the individual is.

I am Irish brought up in UK and hate 12th July 'celebrations'. I find them abhorit's abhorent but such displays are not confined to NI. My DH is from the Sussex where as well as the famous big 5th November bonfire parade in Lewes, there other, smaller Bonfire Societies holding similar events. I took our DC to one once and it was horrible. There was constant cat calls from those parading basically calling for the death of Catholics, the Pope etc followed by some really horrible tirade against the person represented by the 'Guy' before it was placed on the fire.
The event made me feel so uncomfortable that I refused to ever go again but found my views dismissed by people when I tried to explain them. (The DC didn't like it either but for different reasons!)

As a protestant living near belfast I can honestly say that the vast majority of normal hard working people hate 12th July and have always been disgusted by bonfires.

It's nothing but hatred and ignorance and its attended by total knuckle draggers without much hope in life.

Don’t forget we had them in Dublin too.

You edited whilst i was replying.

i was talking about my English village where they haven't burnt effigies of the pope or nationalist/ Irish politicians or flags of any nature.

I agree its not great to burn an image of a person, its very odd and i am sure it will die out. but the political figures genuinely aren't at risk, the village is not heading to the states to burn trump! They are burning fictional characters some years or a covid virus another year. Its gradually evolving.

However the town over, there really were riots at an immigrant hotel and images of those people being burnt would really be more of an incitement situation even though the effigy wasn't of a real individual.

I just feel it hits different. One isn't very nice and one is a risk of actual violence.

I live near belfast and definitely heard it referred to as the glorious twelfth although usually by scummy people or used to mock the same scummy people

Presumably you have checked that with a few members of the Grand Lodge of Ireland? Orangism is an inherently Irish thing, I understand the need for people to deny that but they are no different than someone who is Scottish/Welsh/English and British. People can have more than one identity.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/cbmpk2/clip_of_that_brian_o_driscoll_piece_on_shoulder/

Top prod Ian Paisley “Edward Carson was a life-long Irishman, as well as being a life-long unionist, and that made all the difference… On this 28th day of September, 100 years after his pen touched parchment, we salute the man who taught us all how to be true Irishmen and women.”

I’m Irish from the Republic and have definitely heard it calllef the glorious twelfth. I also lived as a child near the border with the North and there were always loads of people staying over down from the North over that weekend in case there was trouble. Some of them even had holiday homes here (seaside village) and would stay for the whole marching season.

I assume you replied to me before I edited to add the second paragraph? Apologies. I hit post accidentally.

I think burring effigies of any person is wrong. They are still people and burning effigies is, to my mind, a violent act, regardless of how abhorrent the person represented is.

@Fearfulsaints And you edited while I was replying 😁. I only spotted that too late to edit mine.

It's a great feature but it can result in confusion.

That's fair. It a violent act which is why on the whole it is dying out i think. Im not a fan of it.

I just had a really strong response to the boat people of how horrible it was and was musing about why I didn't feel so strongly about a 'lettuce' being burned in my local village. Maybe I should!

The reality is it won't be dealt with, because the power structure of NI is really an illusion.

The real risk of returning to full blown sectarian carnage means its always a tipping scale and the deep seated hate in some fractions of society is allowed to countinue generation after generation because really trying to stamp it out will just lead to a new generation of disillusioned, "fighting" for a cause they actually dont understand. And their wants still take priority over the vast majority of people who just want to get the fck on with living a half decent life.

Like the retrotric of immigration taking jobs, houses, services bringing violence unchecked. Yet the same people are so uneducated they dont realise the problems in the north weren't created, nor countinued by immigration.

The problem is they have a completely ineffective "government" structure still underpinned by hate rather than genuine care for building a society that actually works under years of British government's who didnt really give two shits about what is happening in NI once they stopped bringing those problems across the water by way of hidden bombs in bins.

It's not members of the Grand Lodge of Ireland building the bonfires.
No loyalist I know, and I know a few, despite being a 'them 'un', would ever ever call themselves Irish.

It's not members of the Grand Lodge of Ireland building the bonfires.
No loyalist I know, and I know a few, despite being a 'them 'un', would ever ever call themselves Irish.

YANBU, OP, it was a sickmaking display of xenophobia.

I'd like to see the bigoted fuckers that created it up before the courts, personally.

Well here's the view of a top Orangemen on bonfires... https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/go-ahead-and-enjoy-yourselves-top-orangeman-says-concern-over-bonfire-is-political/a437906712.html

If you don't think Orangemen are out there building them you are mistaken.

And here is someone with pretty strong loyalist credentials that would no doubt call herself Irish. https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/people/the-unionist-gaeilgeoir-3320839

Maybe you need to get to know a few more because there is broad spectrum of views out there and over simplifying things doesnt help anyone.

Smartest doesn't refer to intelligence and fittest doesn't refer to physical prowess.
Darwin theory is better described as 'survival of those that survive'.
Fitness to survive doesn't necessarily come from being a prime specimen in body and mind. All anyone has to do is survive long enough to breed and perpetuate their genetic material, and then for the offspring to be successfully kept alive until they can breed too, and so on.
The people attending the bonies with their children will survive to procreate another day.

So you were fine with it when it was effigies of the native population? Because it has been, for decades. Against a native population that was very much a second class population for a very long time, enduring constant, state sponsored discrimination.

You might want to check your moral compass and ask yourself why that is. Because it's genuinely weird to not give a shit about the much worse effigies but to suddenly think it's a step too far now.

I'm talking about ordinary working class protestant boys and young men from a socially deprived area. I lived in the Village for many years.

I'm guessing you're in Sussex, @Fearfulsaints. Some of the tableaux and effigies are real works of art, and done in a spirit of lampoonery. Almost every PM and US president has been blown up in the 30-odd years I've lived in the county.

Some years ago, one of the village bonfire societies made a tableau of a traveller family in a caravan that was blown up at their bonfire event. There was a massive outcry, and they were roundly condemned by virtually every other bonfire society in the county. They had been invited to the big event in Lewes that year, and even the diehard bonfire people were so disgusted that the invitation was withdrawn.

I was going to write "How embarrassing" but, of course, folk who aren't remotely embarrassed about 1) creating such an effigy, 2) putting it on top of a huge bonfire and 3) taking their children along to enjoy it all aren't likely to be embarrassed about living on a Prince Andrew Crescent.

Incidentally, there is a town in Kent in England (Maidstone?) that has a Stalin Avenue.