to think that life would be less complicated if we didn't have a societal presumption of sexual fidelity?

[fanjolina]

Just reading all the recent threads about errant partners has got me thinking. Why does society demand sexual fidelity?

If sexual relations were on a par with drinking, partying etc - i.e. you could do them with other people when in a relationship, with no impact on your relationship - then life would be so much simpler.

I'm not advocating a free-for-all shagfest, but why is sex held as the most sacrosanct element of a relationship? It makes it particularly hard on couples where one partner has no interest and the other still has desires. Yet to find sexual satisfaction elsewhere to meet their needs is deemed abhorrent.

However if I decided I didn't want to drink again and stopped my DH from ever drinking with anyone else I would be seen as unreasonable.

But AIBU for even thinking outside societal norms and daring to view sexual fidelity as anything less than sacrosanct?

(P.S. I have no personal desire to be unfaithful - but that may just be my societal conditioning )

See I don't see it as us trying to make 'one size fit all'.
Statistics show that more people in the classic 20-40 age group are single, more than married, I think.
Nothing forcing them to get married, if they want to remain having one partner, zillions of partners.
The stigma of not being married is not as bad as it once was, I think.
Nothing forcing you to comply if you don't feel that fidelity is for you.

I do accept that there are double standards re fidelity, re the woman being a whore and the man being 'sowing his oats' = very bad double standard.
But I think that is a slightly different discussion to the one we were having.

Suzy, or Madame Bovary.

i think the majority of men and women have difficulty in coping with the idea that their partner may want to have sex with someone else, which is based more on their disbelief that someone else could seem more appealing at that time. They feel threatened,regardless of whether or not the relationship is exclusive

Most people do want exclusive relationships, but i also suspect that most would take the chance of a quick fling if they thought there would be no repercussions, and would do so whilst still loving the one they were actually attached to

It suits me right now to not be involved with anyone, but to have a few men whom i see on a casual basis, who know that we are not bf/gf, and are free to see who we like in between, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as safe sex is practised, but i do realise that may not be typical attitude

I must be a real bonehead but I didn't have a big discussion with my husband about monogamy before we got married. Most people assume that is what they are signing up for and it is the people who don't have those expectations who should be having those conversations/be honest enough to say so to their partners in advance of marriage or long term commitment.

Whilst personally I shudder at the idea of having extra partners whilst still married, there is nothing wrong with it per se as long as all parties are in agreement. I am sure there are plenty of those relationships where everyone is happy, and plenty where one person is only going along with it to please the other person...like plenty of more ordinary realtionships too I guess.

"It makes it particularly hard on couples where one partner has no interest and the other still has desires. Yet to find sexual satisfaction elsewhere to meet their needs is deemed abhorrent"

I wouldn't say I find it abhorrent but I think there's more than just sex to think about. Often it comes with emotions and often people end up getting hurt.

Dittany's views sound at least 50 years out of date. Don't agree that it's 'ok' for men to shag around, but women are considered to be slags. I think a lot of people hold the view that anyone who screws around fairly indiscriminately, probably has self esteem issues and lacks confidence to be more selective about their sexual partners. Don't think it's a gender thing - it's true for men and women.
I certainly don't feel owned. But then I wouldnt choose to partner a man who wanted to 'own' me.
It's also pointless holding men responsible for cultures and practices from 100 years ago. OK, we all have a kind of collective responsibility for how society unfolds, but this attitude that because in the past women didnt have the rights and independence they now have, we can metaphorically beat up this generation of husbands is bollocks! Move on and choose a man who sees you as an equal!!

Well, I'll freely admit Christianity plays it's part in this - the teaching about marriage is that you become one flesh in a sexual union, so you stay exclusively committed because there's a certain connection made that is supposed to mirror God's relationship with His people.

Now, I have no problem if the non-religious reject that, obviously, but I actually think it makes for a less complicated life than various different shades of polyamory. I mean, if it's complicated we're trying to avoid, then one partner for life is about as uncomplicated as it gets, really.

hmm, DH and I did have a long talk about monogamy etc and he took the view that it would be a break up situation if I did in in our marital home as using our bed for a casual encounter would be tacky.
I took the view that if he went off with a brainless 16 yr old with big tits this would be the end for me as that would impugn me as an intelligent woman.
We have both had opportunities to have a fling but neither of us have.
We also said, it was not the sex per se, it was long term duplicity and lying of an affair that was the hurtful thing.
So we decided if we strayed, we'd mention it.
Neither of us has strayed, probably because there is no thrill?

As long as you both have the same approach it is ok.
I have a mate (female) who has two partners (both men) and all 3 live together and know about each other.
Socially a bit awkward sometimes but it works for them...not my cup of tea AT ALL though!

Miggsie - good post. As far as the act of sticking a penis in a vagina goes, I'm sure if can be done with very little thought and no emotional engagement by either men or women. It's all the subtext that goes with it: if he goes with some thick 16 year old, is that a slur on the woman's intelligence etc.
I believe for many people, by the time they have been in a committed relationship for some years, and had children together, they have hopefully built up a core of self esteem that enables them to make considered choices. A 16 year old may jump into bed with whoever (especially if they lack confidence) but most 30/40 year olds would I guess have a more discerning approach. We all get opportunities for infidelity (or I imagine we all do) but I guess most of the time people decide the cons outweigh the pros.

Those of you polarising relationships as married/monogamous versus lots of partners/casual and shallow are wrong: a substantial number of people have deeply committed long lasting relationships that just don't happen to be sexually exclusive. And the disapprobval of morons doesn't make something actually wrong: morons have disapproved of mixed-race relationships for centuries (and many still do).
ANd legally, marriage doesn't actually have to be sexually exclusive, there is nothing in the legally-required wording for a civil marriage about not having sex with other people (religious marriage is a different matter but totally irrelevant to people who are not religious).

Agree madamez, but can't see any posts which polarise relationships the way you describe. I'm sure there are all kinds of relationships along the spectrum, from monogamous to lots of casual sex and everything inbetween. Has anyone said there isnt??

YABU.

Society doesn't demand fidelity.

This society permits people to basically live however they please - never marrying, open relationships, celibate, what have you.

People chose, for whatever reason, in this society, it's a choice, to promise fidelity to another person.

And if they become unwilling to honour their word, they either come clean about it or not.

Drinking makes you drunk. Partying makes you tired.

Fucking around can fuck you up.

But society does demand fidelity does it not Expat? you just need to look to well known couples where one of them - and it is predominantly the man - has been caught out for cheating. For whatever reason their partner has chosen to stand by them, yet society looks down on a woman who does so. As if she is being walked over and pathetic, and without consideration that they (and she) may have a different view of fidelity than the societal norm.

no, it doesn't, fan. no one has to make marriage vows to someone in the UK, and if they do so under duress, the marriage is invalid.

a person gets up and promises fidelity of his own accord.

Who is this 'society' looking down on the woman? I'm not sure that's true. Maybe if you read some crap tabloid or Heat magazine or the like... but again, that's free choice to read those rags! You are referring to the celebrity culture anyway (which is a very tiny proportion of the married population). I think what you're referring to is a much broader issue about knocking celebrities.

But if anyone famous does choose to live in a way that isn't about sexual ownership, they get slagged off like buggery: look at the acres of newsprint given to wossname (Tilda Swinton? If I am wrong about this I am not trying to slander anyone, just too hungover to remember exactly who it was) who lives with two male partners, is married to one and has sex with the other - it was all, isn;t she weird, how do the men stand it, shouldn't they both dump her, etc, etc etc.

Well I havent read that story (what paper was it in??) and you don't remember the person concerned madamez, so it clearly hasnt made much of an impact!! Also, presumably the menage a trois must have gone public about it anyway..... a newspaper isnt going to know who has sex with whom unless at least one party is willing to spill the beans! Personlly, a story like this wouldnt shock me at all, I'm just pointing out that with celebrities, they are perfectly happy to self promote, and then act surprised when the media put their own twist on it.

it would be great to believe that once you have made the promise to marry/ get into a relationship that all 'decent' people m or f would not then be tempted to ever fool around.

You get married thinking this is the one for life and you will never want another but things change, you have a marriage with no sex or crap sex, you try for years to change it but you have kids, you can't just up and leave although you may want to... You make a mistake and possibly make it more than once, etc. It's shit but it is human.

If you are not tempted to do it I would say that may well be as much because you are lucky enough to have a good marriage as because you are a right-thinking member of society.

But then I am a whore so how would I know.

a person's only a whore if that is what they feel they are.

a person's only a whore if that is what they feel they are.

On the subject of celebrity sex stories, it's also worth pointing out that in many cases, it's the 'other woman' who kisses and tells. Just think of all the cases where a woman has behaved in a very predatory way, intentionally having sex with someone famous and then running to the tabloids for their pay out. I think it's pathetic on both sides - the woman for 'earning' money like this and the man for having a quick meaningless shag. But it does raise the issue of who is actually 'owning' whom. Madamez mentions sexual ownership as though it's all about the man's 'rights' but the women I've just described are often totally calculating about what they do.

don't think that's the view of the (moral) majority expat. On here or otherwise.

But as madamez points out - only religious marriages have fidelity as part of the vows. So not all marriages are necessarily based on fidelity. And for those that are not married - I think a lot of people would expect fidelity, but others will not.

I am firmly on the side of fidelity btw, and always have been. I am just trying to figure out if it is because it is part of my nature and human nature, or if it is conditioning.

My reference to well know couples was to try to draw some common reference point. But you see it throughout all of society. People sniggering at the "poor woman" whose husband had an affair. Or the "doormat" husband who let his wife get away with sleeping with someone else. it is about imposing their views on fidelity on to another couple and judging their situation on that basis.