To think £130 a month isn't worth the aggro

[AnnaQuayInTheUk]

I am currently acting up into a management role in local government. I'm managing a small team and one of the team members is an absolute nightmare. She has twice been on a PIP for poor performance BUT she refuses to acknowledge that her performance is below standard.

She argues with me over every little thing, sends countless emails picking fault with everything I do and is currently pursuing a grievance against me for allegedly being unsupportive of her.

I appreciate there are two sides to every story, and that she has every right to raise issues. However, the stress she is causing me is immense. Other team members are also complaining about her behaviour and one of my high performing staff members is threatening to resign because they can't stand working with her.

I realised last week that, after tax, I only earn £120 per month more for this role than I would in my substantive post.

AIBU to think that I really don't need this hassle and I'd rather forego the £1440 per year and have a more straightforward life at work? I really liked my old team and my old manager and think I could slot back in but it feels like I've failed.

If you were supported…..but you’re not. Fuck it. Your mental health is priceless, just leave it for someone else.

Good people are threatening to leave? Let them, it isn’t your company and it won’t affect you ultimately. Managers far far more senior to you have chosen to not do anything.

Just leave, and have a good nights sleep.

Seems like the best move would be to send a joint complaint. And offer to resign. Maybe she'll get booted out.

My other comment depending on how you play it is your own coping strategies to minimise the negativity.

It is well know bad employees take up all management time whilst those working hard are overlooked and it’s just expected. There are 2 choices - manage out or minimise.

Given good people are considering leaving you need to focus attention on good performers and just ignore the idiot mostly. You don’t need to respond to every email, comment or question from this person. It’s classic attention seeking as well and consider you are managing an oversized narcissistic toddler. You need to ramp up recognition of good team members and dilute the crap. I also tend to do things like ignore but overly highlight how they made someone “feel”, because that’s far more subjective.

”wanted to provide some feedback on your last meeting. Be aware how you’re being received which whilst unintentional could be construed another way. I’d like you to review the company policy on X and how we communicate with other”. Document document document. Don’t continue the conversation, shut it down and say you have another appt.

These are all skills for your next role. There are no easy management jobs because it involves people.

I agree with you.middle management is shit and not worth the ‘extra’ money unless you intend to climb higher. I got promoted to manage a team as part of a re org and I really wish it hadn’t happened. Thankless and not properly renumerated

But it's not just about the £30 a week. It's the impact on your cv of stepping up, then down.

I'm in the private sector and in a senior role, and someone in my team was insistent on treating me like absolute shit. It was too subtle to do anything about, but just a constant campaign of chipping away at everything I did.

I thought about leaving the business on many occasions, but then realised I wasn't going to let this person impact my CV. So I stuck it out, developed a thicker skin, and now just do lots of internal eye rolling and smirking to myself whenever they speak!

It's the worst part of management. I work in a stressful sector but dealing with a difficult, incompetent staff member has been by far the worst part of it. I now understand why so many managers leave bad staff to get on with it and don't deal with them, often to the annoyance of good staff. I have carefully managed this person over several years and followed various HR processes with a big impact on my health and sanity. It's the right thing to do and models to staff that you want to fairly tackle this but unless you are better remunerated, or want the experience, i'd consider your options. I do this as I'm a single parent but it's tough going. You need a good deputy below or manager above and I'm lucky to have both supporting me.

Is this an SPO role by any chance? It’s an impossible job really when you don’t have a solid team. Absolutely not worth the money and no shame in stepping back from something that is not working for you.

I sympathise about getting rid of people in the public sector, it is very difficult, but if she isn’t performing then it’s her role that needs to change, not yours.

Document everything, make sure all instructions and conversations are followed up with emails.

Notify her of any performance issues before you get to performance review stage so she can’t claim she was blindsided.

Don’t be hounded out a job you would enjoy if it wasn’t for her. Also, don’t forget to factor in the difference that pay increase makes to your pension before giving it up.

Sadly we can only move up an increment if we are judged to be "outstanding" in our role. No one at my level has had an increment rise in the last 3 years. I put forward a request to give a highly performing member of my team and incremental rise this year and senior management turned it down. There's no money.

I've got 9 years to go until I retire, I don't want to progress any further, so I think this is as far as I will go in my career. Which is fine. But I really don't need the stress she's causing me.

@AIAgent I love the phrase "oversized narcissistic toddler" - that absolutely sums her up!

I'm not worried about career progression and I do get the point about this being part and parcel of middle management. So I need to decide if it's worth it and I'm really not sure it is.

Added into the mix is Local Government Reorganisation in 2028 which will mean a restructure, not sure if I should hang on til then and hope that she will end up in a different LA to me. But that's still a couple of years away.

As her manager, it’s up to you to follow the process to the point where the employer can safely get rid for capability, etc. HR are there to support you in that (but not to do it, that’s the managers role). Your manager should be supporting you - even more so as you are acting up. I know the local govt processes well and it is indeed a long and painful road for a manager in your situation dealing with a person with numerous PIPs where the individual improves for a bit then falls back. I sympathise greatly. If you were looking to continue developing your career, I would say stick with it, push HR and your own line manager to support you as much they can, and progress the process - people do get let go from local govt for poor performance if it’s deemed safe by Legal to do so (although can only speak from my own experience). However, given where you are in your life and career, if it was me, I’d relinquish the acting up role and go back to my substantive post.

Haven’t read the full thread but came on to say I had similar last year. Finally got rid but it took 9 months, a payout and the legacy staff (me and colleague) nearly had nervous breakdowns. HR are just useless, worried about reprisals and being seen to have done something wrong. No one cares a jot about you as you keep on keeping on, despite the fact you are effectively being bullied from below. As a PP said, interestingly, since then, I had a promotion. I kept copious records and so on but it was a horrible horrible time and incredibly stressful. Made me ill.

The problem is, people like the OP are describing aren’t actually failing in their role: they are just making life unpleasant for everyone while doing their work. I have the same issue with someone I manage but apparently it isn’t enough to constitute misconduct. Instead, we are putting her on a PIP for performance which I know she will pass - and she is STILL moaning about me in every single HR meeting we jointly attend. My only hope is that she moans so much it then provides the evidence to get her on misconduct but I doubt it!

@Holdonforsummer that sounds so familiar!

Bullying and harrassment, you need to manage her out. Her other colleagues need to speak up also and make a complaint, if someone is willing to leave their job because of her, that makes 2 of you. Speak to your manager and make a formal complaint and she will have no option to deal with it instead of referring you to HR, and to be fair if she is doing that then you have an issue with your manager also. I would ask for another meeting, make a list of your concerns and any complaints you have had from other staff.

If you do decide to step down and revert to your previous role, I would make it clear your reason for doing so. Any information on her behaviour helps to paint the picture on what she's like. The fact that she can reign it in enough to get through two PIPs shows her behaviour is deliberate.

If you don’t want promotion or the extra money then it isn’t worth it.
Do you like the job aside from this person?

I’d stick with it personally- imagine if this person ends up managing you!

Has this person been there awhile, knows the job and been overlooked, thus resents you? What are they actually doing.

This! Put your big girl pants on, speak to collegues who are also fed up and go straight to management. It is not right or fair that this person is bullying you all. Make management sort her out!

I used to be a supervisor for a large team. (We did most of the managers work for them and took it at both ends)

A staff member was once going on about how great my job must be in the break room. I pointed to the vending machine and said ‘I’m paid enough to buy one extra item from the vending machine per hour.’ Something like 65p. It was absolutely not worth it to take it from all angles 10 hours a day till 4am. They saw my point.

You have my sympathy op

Nine years until retirement is a long time regardless of whether you want to progress.

you need to be more insistent with both your manager and HR. Document the interactions and the impact it is having on you and your team, formalise your complaint.

Stop engaging with her “feedback”.

and I disagree with the poster said that people like this woman are not failing in their job. They absolutely are and treating them as if they’re not is a significant part of the problem. An ability to cooperate, be productive, build positive relationships and respond to feedback is a critical component of virtually any role. If she cannot work constructively she is failing regardless of whether tasks are being completed and you need to make that absolutely clear to HR and your manager

Check with HR and your manager if this may be a case for a "protected conversation". If she is causing so many problems, they may be willing to pay to get rid of her.

If not, you can either kill her with kindness (i.e. manage her very closely, as she is clearly struggling) or you can come down harder. While there is a standard term for a PIP in most places, that can be extended - what are the odds that she behaves for 6 instead of e.g. 3 months? Either way, the first stage before a PIP should be added informal support, block half an hour every fortnight for regular catch-ups and make it clear it is because her performance is lacking.

In my experience most managers suck at writing PIPs, did you see the actual paperwork? It is absolutely fine to include behavioural measures, including "needs to improve communication within the team", with very clear targets. Just document why that is needed, e.g. "has repeatedly offended co-workers which means working relationships are breaking down" and make sure you got the evidence to back it up - target: no/fewer complaints from co-workers, better working relationships. Think about it that way, a shop assistant who repeatedly offends shoppers (who then leave without buying anything) would pretty swiftly be told to work on their behaviour, no matter how well they stock shelves or scan items.

Honestly, it is a classical case of the first time is the hardest. After that, these things just happen on auto-pilot - and I say that as a someone who likes to assume the best of people and will therefore offer lots of additional support before taking any formal steps. Often that spurs them into motion but if not, it means you have a really strong case for a PIP.

In terms of the money, worth remembering that your pension contributions will also be higher!