SEN funding isn't a bottomless money pit

[Sogfree]

I'll preface this by saying I really enjoy my job working in a SEN school. I care deeply for the children and families I work with.

I've had 4 different conversations this week with parents where they expect an excessive amount of additional resource to be allocated to their child. They expect this as, in their opinion, it's needed. I disagree with 3 of the 4 parents that this is needed.

All 4 of the parents are going to fight the decisions county have made. Their decision to fight will mean county spend more money arguing the challenge.

Services are already broken with the increase in need. Recruitment fails, as there aren't enough speech therapists/OTs/CAMHS practitioners etc to employ.

One parent demanding extra from one of these services means another child gets less.

One parent demanding a child goes to school X at £100k per year when a place at school Y at £30k is going to meet their needs means the child who needs the place at school X doesn't get it, and extra £70k per year is wasted. And the parent keeps their child out of school for 12-18 months whilst they fight for the place at school X.

That's the reality.

Every parent wants the world for their child. I understand that. But taxpayers can't afford to give every child the world.

AIBU - parents know their child best and we should fund what the parents say the child needs

YANBU - there's only so much money to go around and parents need to accept hard decisions have to be made without challenging them

I agree that we do need to look at mainstream schooling. I think as mainstream schooling has got 'worse' it has pushed more pupils to need an ehcp, to recieve what would have been ordinary provision just 12 years ago (when I started to work in schools).

But ehcps are still only around 5% of all pupils.

It's very easy to get carried away with figures. Yes 20% of pupils have always had sen but I don't think that we are anywhere near suggesting 20% of pupils need special schools. Less that 10% of the 20% are in special schools. You could double that and still have the majority of sen in mainstream

My own experience working in LA is that there’s alot of “leakage” a bit like the NHS. Consequently you could throw as much money as you want at it and it would still be like catching water in a colander.

If the current mainstream education wasn't so rigid, some simple adjustments put in place and parents knowledge of their child were properly taken into account, then lots of these children wouldn't go on to require such expensive education.

My kids' needs denied for at least 5 years because teachers thought they knew my kids better than me. They didn't see what was going on behind the academically able and well behaved mask my children were wearing at school and they dismissed me as being over anxious.

I knew what was happening. My kids needed a bit more understanding and a different approach. Lockdown also made me realise that my eldest was really struggling to keep up on class even though they have a high IQ.

Years of denying need and actively working against us led to my child having a breakdown. That has cost this country far more than putting some simple support in and making a few adjustments in mainstream.

Years of ineffective treatment at CAMHS (too complex for local CAMHS) and then having to be under a specialist NHS hospital and then the requirement for an independent specialist school at the cost of ££££ because our county doesn't have a special school for academically able SEND kids. The cost of fighting us every step of the way. It's all added up to, at a guess, £500k (over 5 years) to this country. There's more money required because my child is still in recovery 5 years on. When it probably could have cost £100k over 10 years had the system been more efficient and the so-called professionals listened to the expert in the child, their parent.

Mainstream education is far too rigid for most SEND children. They MUST fit into a box when the CAN'T. My kids just need a bit of compassion and to feel heard. A smaller, quieter environment and some quiet place to go when.it all gets too much. If that had been offered from the beginning, then they would have been fine.

An example of CAMHS: I told them about a book I was using to support my child. The CAMHS worker had never heard of it. I'd learnt about it from another parent whose child was further along the road than mine. 6 months later, this same CAMHS worker recommended that same book to me!!! Here's the 'expert' imparting their 'wisdom' to me when I was already 10 steps ahead of them! This CAMHS person had a doctorate!

The problem is the inefficiencies in the administration of the system and the rigidity in the 'professionals' that think that as they have studied to degree level, they know best. Thankfully, I'm educated enough to fight for my child. The real victims are the ones that have parents that can't fight.

Honestly this is not my experience either when I worked in school or the LA. The level of control over expenditure at all levels is rigid.

Nonsense. What I’m seeing is kids who should be in an enhanced provision school being shoved in to mainstream without enough support.

You probably shouldn’t be working with SEN kids

Yes and getting rid of terms like “Asperger’s” and “development delays” are incredibly unhelpful for this very reason. Everyone is talking cross purposes.

The initial teacher training curriculum also needs to be overhauled to j Clyde a lot more on SWEND. And a compulsory placement in a specialist school.

In today's climate with less money about it would make sense to employ a few people and a minibus and have them as permanent employees. I'm really hoping the Reform council, who we hear are keen to climate wasteful spending will insist on giving contract to a local firm or better still allow DC to go to closet special school which is less than 1 mile from our house and we would walk, hence saving £43,500 pa. We will see.

I disagree with both of your voting options.

Sometimes parents are right, but access to appropriate provision is made difficult because LA's don't want to spend the money.

Sometimes parents are wrong. I suspect because of the above, some parents are less likely to accept that they are - if all you read about is having to fight to get your child's needs met, you're going to go in with that expectation.

That’s reassuring - I work across several LA’s and some are better than others. I’m glad there is atleast one getting it right.

Parents aren’t responsible for the increase in demand or the lack of funding to meet it, the issue is the system.

Local authorities spent £150m+ on defending SEND tribunal appeals in 23-24 and, of the 11,000 cases decided by the tribunal, 95% found in favour of the parents. That’s not one or two pushy parents that know how to play the game - it’s a systemic failure and a colossal waste of taxpayers money which should have been spent on actually educating children.

The system could be improved in so many ways - a more flexible approach to allocating provision that worked with parents instead of against them, making mainstream schools more inclusive by default, improving access to work for SEND children when their adults so they have more opportunities to contribute financially to society, etc. We need to be more ambitious than expecting parents to accept whatever crumbs of support they’re offered.

It isn't that the EHCP system isn't fit for purpose, it's that LAs routinely act unlawfully. My eldest started school with a Statement, he's now 19. I've spent a long time in the system and connecting with other parents. I've been through a tribunal.

To have a model where all CYP can only access a mainstream school, with very few exceptions, and removing the ability for parents to appeal, isn't going to address the issues. It will cause real damage and trauma to the children and families will presumably have to Electively Home Educate. Something the current government (and general public opinion) is very against. It would really be pushing families already at breaking point into an intolerable lose:lose situation.

This is a lovely read.

I'm really grateful that my sons teachers feel the same way.

He's in mainstream, resitting reception but soon to go straight into year 2. It's a nightmare for us as we're on our 3rd emergency annual review. We've named a specialist school, LA are pushing back.

They want us to accept a mainstream with PRU for a child with social communication and interaction primary need, who's education should be focused mostly around life skills given his ability. This isn't something they can cater to in local PRUs but it is the cheaper option for the LA.

I know for a fact the school we have named are over subscribed, but the environment is the only one he has a chance to achieve his own individual potential in. His success will look different to most children's success but he absolutely deserves the best opportunities for him.

I'm often told why should the LA bother because he will probably never work but that is not the point at all. People who think it is are small minded and I'd beg them to put themselves in my shoes.

This is the crux of the dilemma though, isn't it?

Parents and children have legal rights and entitlements which aren't funded.

So councils will continue to try to push back on them because the money isn't there.

And tribunals and appeals will continue to find that the children do have the right to the services.

And councils will continue to go bankrupt.

The solution is not automatically that we need to provide the funding. It could be that we need to review paper rights that provide unfunded defined benefits. The most practical answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

A small example is that my child as a teen still needs their transitional object at all times to help them to cope.

Aged 4 they were trying to remove that object in nursery. Aged 5, the teacher saw the need and treated my child as an individual and always acknowledged the transitional object and it was allowed and in sight and, where necessary, given to my child in class in times of upset. That was the most successful year of my child's mainstream education.

After that, the mainstream school tried to stop my child from having it or bringing in other important objects because, you know, they need to grow up and they can't have these things in school (the objects were a few inches in size so not in people's faces or causing a disruption or anything).

The removal of that object was one of the biggest causes of anxiety to my child that snowballed leading to the breakdown.

Now, at special school, they have their transitional object at all times and they're flying. Both academically, emotionally and socially.

Such a simple, no cost thing but because it's 'not allowed' past the age of 3 according to societal expectations or seen as odd by NT people, it has cost the tax payer a bloody fortune!!

It's cost us as a family with my career as I had to leave my professional role and pick.up minimum wage admin jobs with only a few hours a week to fit around school and all of the paperwork I need to do to keep on top of 'the system' and how much I've been broken by the fight. I added up that I spend at around 5 hours a week almost every week on disability paperwork.

Why would they listen to that child's mum that the object is needed by my child?

Because I've always worked with disabled students (20 years experience). I've been in both mainstream and specialists schools. They get ignored and over looked in mainstream schools. Specialist schools put them in classes of ability for maths and English. They perform better and make friends more easily.

Specialist schools put them in classes of ability for maths and English. They perform better and make friends more easily.

This depends entirely on the individual and the school. It is not the case for all.

This country is so rich we CAN afford it. The fact we choose not to is the reality. We spend billions of pounds on power trips like wars,like the current assylum issues,like duck moats for MPs gardens etc. No one cares about SEN as much as they should do. Families and children need help.No one chooses this for their children. This country runs on a set of screwed morals in my view.

That certainly doesn’t work for everyone.

the only specialist school locally that offers any GCSEs is an independent one. No others in a 30 mile radius offer them.

children with SEN still need those chances if that is in there ability but the system doesn’t allow that.

a mainstream school that ignores pupils with SEN is a bad school.

I didn’t suggest the sole solution was just providing the funding.

How would removing the paper rights that provide unfunded defined benefits will help unless they’re replaced with funded defined benefits? The educational needs of these children exists regardless of paper rights.

@Needlenardlenoo, yes, I would raise DD’s difficulties outside of school during the AR process.

Teachers in mainstream have classes of 30 ish say.
And unfulfilled TA posts.

So what do they do? Even with funding?

Given that parents win 99% of SEN tribunals it’s quite clear that in the vast majority of cases LAs are in the wrong and not meeting the minimum legal requirements for provision. This is not a difference of opinion or them making a mistake given the figure is 99%; it is a deliberate, systemic policy to refuse to provide children with disabilities with an adequate education. Local Authorities fighting such pointless legal battles that they know they will not win is also an egregious and illegal misuse of public funds, but that’s hardly the fault of the parents.

Tribunals do not mandate gold-plated and luxurious provision. They simply apply the law to provide adequate and proportionate provision for a child when the LA has tried to circumvent it.

Your ire is wrongly directed at parents who are forced to enforce the law individually to ensure their child can access an adequate education per the law. This is also a human right and one that we’d take a dim view of even a developing country denying to a child.

It’s an utter disgrace that a developed country like the UK refuses to fund education adequately for all children. It is a national shame that this isn’t the top spending priority when we are talking about disabled children who are by definition the most vulnerable members of our society. It is also economically illiterate and a false economy.

The underfunding by LAs and central Government is an embarrassment to our country and makes things very difficult for schools but that is neither the fault of disabled children or their parents and I think it is verging on abusive to try to blame them when parents of these children have to watch their child’s life chances and education be destroyed and be subjected to immense stress and expense often over a period of years to enforce their child’s most basic legal rights.

The entire system needs overhaul with a far wider variety of schools to meet different needs made available with adequate numbers of places and proper funding. This would cost a drop in the ocean compared to the money wasted on many areas of Government spending which are far less important and will also have far lower economic returns. The current system is failing everybody, including disabled children who have nobody to fight the illegal behaviour of Local Authorities on their behalf, and non-disabled children whose education is neglected because other children are being forced into inappropriate mainstream provision which is completely unsuitable for them.

Sadly we have an Education Minister as clueless and misguided as you appear to be, OP. It is highly concerning that you work with vulnerable children given the views you’ve expressed here which completely misunderstand the cause of the problem and the available solutions.

Absolutely none of these things are happening at my DS specialist school. He isn't in a class with children who have the same maths ability as him (so he's re-doing year 4 work for the 5th time, age 13). He's also not getting the specialist English and SALT input he needs and is given English work that is frustratingly hard for him.
He doesn't have any friends (partly because he is very easily frustrated, so are his classmates, and at least one of them has bullied him) and even if he did, they all live about an hour in the opposite direction from school.
You cannot possibly make a blanket statement about specialist schools (about 10 of the specialist schools in my county have a 0% pass rate for GCSE) or children with SEN (I have several friends whose children did well in mainstream and have multiple diagnoses - one has just started university - and others whose children are being treated exactly the same as my DS in specialist - no expectations at all, at my DS school they explicitly told another parent they were training the pupils up to be car valets).

To be fair we are a relatively small LA, and some find the degree to which everything needs signing off at service lead level frustrating. Overall through expenditure is strictly controlled.