1 marriage and a fake wedding.

[Weonlyhavealoanofit]

My daughter is attending a wedding of an old school friend which is taking place at a stately home with all the trimmings. The big dress, the 120 guests and multiple bridesmaids and groomsmen. They’ve even gone to the bother of having a vicar and a full wedding service in the chapel attached to the stately home (which hasn’t been consecrated), however the bride and groom are already married. They married earlier this year, before about 25 members of their families in a RC church, having complied with all the requirements of that church. My daughter tells me that everyone who knows about the real wedding is supposed to pretend that they are unmarried and doing this for the first time, because otherwise ‘it’ll spoil the big day’. I understand that the groom’s mother, is a very forceful personality who wasn’t happy about the RC wedding and is determined to have a big Instagram wedding, but AIBU in thinking this makes a mockery of religious weddings as a sacrament? My husband thinks it’s just another shakedown by entitled offspring with overly indulgent parents, but it’s the deceitfulness of it all that bothers me. Of course parents want help their children celebrate their ‘big day’ but what is happening here seems so insincere, why would anyone want to start their married life with a fake wedding? Are people really so shallow?

If it wasn't a legal catholic marriage it would have been a 'blessing'

I think it’s all bonkers. Just get married once. Have a party. Move on. Save yourself thousands of pounds.

Gosh OP you have hit a nerve! I’m surprised by how agitated people are by your post. What is mumsnet if not a place to air views about things and ask what other people think? Even if we don’t have an invitation to the party?

I agree with you, the couple is being weird. And the difference between ‘wedding’ and ‘party celebrating the wedding of the people who got married a while back’ is clearly significant to them, since they want to keep their actual wedding under wraps. They obviously don’t think it’s all perfectly normal, nothing to see here, or it wouldn’t be a secret.

Good luck to them with that, though, if there were 25 people at their wedding.

I don't think it is anyone's business really

An ordained minister in the c of e can conduct a marriage blessing but the chapel must still be consecrated, many in stately homes are because they are used for weddings. It’s quite common to have a blessing service, usually it’s down to the rules regarding where you live - you can only marry in your parish church or one you have a qualifying connection to eg regularly worship at or used to live there in the past (there’s a few others too) it’s pretty and we like the venue isn’t a connection! I have this conversation with couples multiple times a month, some even say they will pay extra, no can do - you must have a connection but the work around is get married in a civil ceremony and have the blessing instead

By the way I’m celebrating Christmas next week and you’re all invited. The vicar’s going to be there too. I’d like you all to get proper dressed up, come and stay in a hotel nearby, sort out childcare if your kids are in school, and bring me presents. Because it’s Christmas, right?

The fact is a wedding is a ceremony where people legally get married and make that commitment to each other. This is irrefutable.

If the couple decide something separate is significant to them, that is fair enough. But again, they should be honest with their guests, it is their guests business, and if their guests can then make a decision themselves on spend and attendance based on their own subjective opinions and feelings.

Your argument only holds water if you believe it is ok to lie to your family and friends to manipulate them. Otherwise why not just tell them the truth?

I would judge only the dishonestly and manipulation - most people judge dishonesty and manipulation surely? I do not judge how a couple choose to organise their events.

We don't have to agree, we can also discuss our different opinions respectfully without resorting to name calling.

If you're a practicing Catholic, getting married within the Catholic church can be a very big thing, maybe the bride's family are devout? I'm an atheist, but DH's family are Catholic so the church bit was important to them, and there just aren't as many Catholic churches in the UK as there are CoE ones, so finding a church and a suitable reception venue near each other took a while.
It sounds like the couple in this case have just gone for the pragmatic solution - get the legal bit done relatively quietly in the Catholic church, then go for a blessing at a venue that's large enough to host a wedding reception for everyone they want to invite.
Hopefully they'll have a long and happy life together, which is, after all the important bit.

But so what? Are you actually expecting the invitations to the second wedding to include an RSVP option that says 'I'm refusing your invitation unless you can swear to me that no previous legal or religious wedding ceremony has taken place, because DECEIT'?

Well, it sounds as if you and your vicar are well suited.

I don't think you can possibly have the full facts here. No C of E priest would perform a sham wedding in a deconsecrated chapel.

ETA that I once went to a wedding in a stately home with a deconsecrated chapel which was used for the civil marriage ceremony. It was made absolutely clear that this was a civil service conducted by a registrar, however.

Agreed. The vicar will be in the know and doing some form of blessing, though some people on the thread say that a vicar would not even perform a blessing in an unconsecrated/deconsecrated chapel. I assume that, as with so much in the C of E, there may be different positions on this.

(A priest actually performed the full Catholic marriage ceremony for two lesbian friends of mine in England some years ago. He was on leave from a parish somewhere in west Africa, pretty much at retirement age, not under the immediate management of any UK diocese, and he felt strongly about it. Both women are devout Catholics. Absolutely against all rules, invalid, excommunication etc etc, but an ordained priest actually performed the full rite over them. If you leave out the fact that it had to be done in secret, by a priest in transit, and that the church of which they are loyal, if not uncritical members has a horrific record towards women and children, it's a great (and true) story.

But again, they should be honest with their guests, it is their guests business, and if their guests can then make a decision themselves on spend and attendance based on their own subjective opinions and feelings.

Of course not, why would they need to?

YOU decide that the only important and valid part is the legal ceremony. Again, many people believe it's just a formality, which means nothing and don't feel married or committed by signing a vague piece of paper.

For these couples, the REAL wedding ceremony is the one in church, (or a humanist ceremony in a significant place, or whatever they believe in).
Why do you think it's any of your business to decide it's valid or not? It's their wedding, they invite you to what they believe is important, I stand by my point, it's none of your business and not up to you to decide they are wrong, and it doesn't count.

You can easily divorce from a legal wedding, it's not the same for some religious ones.

I don't believe it's manipulating anyone, or that everyone has to go into full details. I don't believe it's any of the guests business if the couple had sex before, will have sex on the wedding night either.

I honestly do not understand what the big deal is.

I think if you feel the need to be dishonest then you feel guilty about something.

@1StrawberryDaiquiri , about the legal ceremony : “many people believe it's just a formality, which means nothing and don't feel married or committed by signing a vague piece of paper.”

I don’t read the OP as saying that the legal wedding is the only important thing. Just that it is in fact the wedding. It doesn’t mean that all the things that go into a marriage are unimportant or that they should not be celebrated.

But I’m genuinely interested in this.

Can I ask anyone who thinks that the legal ceremony means nothing, and is a pointless formality, why they bother to get married? Why not just be a couple in a committed, loving, relationship? Why not have a big party to celebrate that?

Also this couple have already had their ‘real wedding in church’ and the oddity here is that they’re having another ceremony, dressing it up as their first wedding and asking those who know to keep quiet about it.

It is not my business to decide if they are wrong, but it is my business how I want to invest my money and time.

You don't need to understand why people feel differently. But surely you can understand a couple lying and manipulating people to follow their narrative, preventing them from freedom of choice, is wrong?

"Why would they need to?" If there is no "big deal" why do they not tell them? I think you know the answer, it is because they know many people will have different opinions so they would lose control, perhaps lose the element of duty people feel to attend the actual marriage ceremony (and spend a lot of money) and they instead lie to manipulate people to keep that control.

Of course the couples sex life is no ones business, unless they are expecting others to be guests and get involved! Then up front honestly is absolutely the best policy there too🤣

It was a pointless formality for me, but my longtime partner had been asking me to marry him for years and years. I said yes, eventually, but only on the grounds that we did it casually, with two witnesses. The relationship is hugely important to me, but it remained unchanged in its essence -- the marriage was not. For me, it was akin to making a will or signing a mortgage, a contract. Not something to have a party about. But I'm delighted that other people feel celebratory, and I enjoy other people's weddings. I just didn't want one of my own.

It depends on the country.When you can do both at the same point, it's a bit irrelevant.

I was more referring to countries where you cannot get a religious wedding for example until you have been legally married in a registry office. So the "legal" part can be seen as a formality but that doesn't really count, and the actual commitment is in the religious etc. ceremony.

Same for humanist ceremonies which I think are still not legally valid in the UK (I might be wrong)

Or for a wedding overseas which has no legal status in the UK

So the legal ceremony is "a pointless formality" but a necessary one if that makes sense.

It seems perfectly possible that only one of them is Catholic, and that they married in a Catholic church to appease that set of parents. The OP says the groom's mother (presumably not Catholic, also a 'forceful personality') was unhappy about this, and wanted a 'big Instagram wedding' to compensate.

So I imagine any guilt/secrecy floating around is amply explained by the circumstances.

For all we know, the bride and groom are muttering 'For fuck sake, why didn't we elope to Vegas and get married by an Elvis impersonator?' and praying for death.

Thanks, @1StrawberryDaiquiri and @CourageConsort .

It is not my business to decide if they are wrong, but it is my business how I want to invest my money and time.

Deciding to attend, or not attend, a wedding IS indeed your business.

What I don't understand is why it's up to YOU to decide what is actually important?
I mean, if a couple has a legal wedding in the registry office down their office and they do a quick wedding during their lunch break with a random from the street as a witness, that's the only one you accept to consider attending?

The big wedding with all the trimmings that they actually care about, and would invite you with all their friends and family, you decline because you have decided it does not count?

Allow me to find this extraordinary, and frankly very judgmental to have an opinion on what is actually a wedding for people.

YOU decide the only "legal" part is important and matters. I don't believe it's up to you to make such decision for someone else. The wedding should be what the couple decide it is surely

I agree. A priest would risk legal sanction (even imprisonment) for knowingly pretending that a wedding blessing ceremony was a legal marriage. I work in Scotland and all our celebrants will make some declaration ragrding the status of the ceremony. e.g. "Paul and Sarah had a small and private civil ceremony in the USA but today they want to share their vows and promises with all of you." I know of one person who signed a fake certificate - they had their authority to hold legal weddings revoked.

I also think that honesty, truth, trust are such important foundations of marriage that to start out your marriage by trying to pull the wool over the eyes of close frineds and family is pretty bad karma.

The bit that jumps out at me is the groom's mother being unhappy with the Catholic wedding. Good luck bride.

We are going around in circles now so it is a pointless discussion. The central point of a "wedding" is the marriage ceremony; you cannot redefine what a wedding is and you cannot control how people feel about a wedding and a different type of event.

No one should lie and manipulate guests. And you cannot call people judgmental when they have repeatedly said they do not judge the events or decisions, only the dishonesty.

I bid you a good evening.