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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cervical Smears-Not to Go?

377 replies

B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 21:10

So I’ve always been very compliant with anything medical but after a number of really bad experiences (most NHS but some private) I’m now more sceptical.

I’ve been invited for my latest smear test, and inspired by another current thread on women’s health, I wanted to ask IABU if I don’t go?

I know for some people smears can be painful and even traumatic. I’ve been lucky not to have been in that situation. However, I am concerned about the downsides-mainly, the risk of false positives. Basically where something “abnormal” is treated but where it wouldn’t have actually caused harm. I think these are a recognised downside for preventative screening programmes, but I don’t know what the risk is for smears and breast screening. I’m not in an at risk group so far as I know. If I noticed a problem I would definitely get it checked out but just want to take a risk-based approach.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
ThisCraftyHelper · 30/05/2025 23:06

Sarah2891 · 30/05/2025 23:04

YANBU. It's your choice.

I've never had one and never will. I don't have HPV.

You know HPV is what they test for when they are carrying out smears? You wouldn’t know you have it.

WestwardHo1 · 30/05/2025 23:08

It's your choice surely. Just like all other medical procedures are your choice.

BelaLug0si · 30/05/2025 23:11

CalmDownCats · 30/05/2025 23:01

I was called back for a repeat smear once, would this have been a false positive? Nothing was found. All smears since have been clear.

What was the smear result and when did this happen, as the screening programme has changed significantly in 2008, 2012 and 2019.
Reasons for repeat test would vary depending on the patient management in place at the time.

Commonly, a sample that’s unreadable or not suitable for testing would ask for a repeat in 3 months.
Before 2012, then borderline changes and mild changes would usually get a 6 month recall. From 2012-2019 HPV testing was used to triage where low grade changes were found on cytology, if high risk HPV was picked up then a colposcopy referral was made. If no high risk HPV found then 3 or 5 year recall depending on age.

Very generally, a false positive is thought of when there is a report or assessment of high grade pre-cancerous changes for no abnormality is found after appropriate investigations.

AlexisP90 · 30/05/2025 23:12

I had a smear at 24 because, and quote, "it's nearly time for your first one so we may as well just do it while you're here "

Came back and there was a problem. had multiple rounds of loop treatments and burning of cervical cells to sort it.

I was 24.

I'm forever thankful for that nurse making me have one then.

Up to you but I think you are being unreasonable suggesting it's a waste of time.
I would rather waste my time with false positives than risk ending my life for not going.

I'm sorry that's a bit bleak but I shudder and feelsad at any female not going to their smear tests.

HoskinsChoice · 30/05/2025 23:12

If I ran the health system, I would refuse treatment for anyone was so stupid and ungrateful that they chose not to have a smear. Unless of course they had a good reason.

onelostsoulswimminginafishbowl · 30/05/2025 23:13

I live in NZ and here the doctor gives you a small plastic swap that you can either pop to the bathroom and use or take home and pop back to drop off. Is it not the same in the UK?

CalleOcho · 30/05/2025 23:16

If you’re looking for information and sources to make an informed choice …. Mumsnet is not the place.

B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 23:16

AlexisP90 · 30/05/2025 23:12

I had a smear at 24 because, and quote, "it's nearly time for your first one so we may as well just do it while you're here "

Came back and there was a problem. had multiple rounds of loop treatments and burning of cervical cells to sort it.

I was 24.

I'm forever thankful for that nurse making me have one then.

Up to you but I think you are being unreasonable suggesting it's a waste of time.
I would rather waste my time with false positives than risk ending my life for not going.

I'm sorry that's a bit bleak but I shudder and feelsad at any female not going to their smear tests.

I’m glad they were able to catch this snd treat you. I’m absolutely not saying the test is a waste of time. I’ve explored a bit more upthread why this isn’t so black and white for me

OP posts:
B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 23:16

HoskinsChoice · 30/05/2025 23:12

If I ran the health system, I would refuse treatment for anyone was so stupid and ungrateful that they chose not to have a smear. Unless of course they had a good reason.

What’s a good reason, to you?

OP posts:
ThisCraftyHelper · 30/05/2025 23:17

HoskinsChoice · 30/05/2025 23:12

If I ran the health system, I would refuse treatment for anyone was so stupid and ungrateful that they chose not to have a smear. Unless of course they had a good reason.

Only patients that usually refuse to attend are those with a learning disability and it’s not even them that are refusing, it’s their carers/parents. (From my experience) You have to record it so they won’t receive any future invitations.

B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 23:18

CalleOcho · 30/05/2025 23:16

If you’re looking for information and sources to make an informed choice …. Mumsnet is not the place.

Some PPs have shared some helpful studies from NHS etc so I disagree, although I think some responses have been more thoughtful than others

OP posts:
WestwardHo1 · 30/05/2025 23:18

HoskinsChoice · 30/05/2025 23:12

If I ran the health system, I would refuse treatment for anyone was so stupid and ungrateful that they chose not to have a smear. Unless of course they had a good reason.

Why should "gratitude" come into it? This is not a moral issue. How dare you try and make it one.

B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 23:20

onelostsoulswimminginafishbowl · 30/05/2025 23:13

I live in NZ and here the doctor gives you a small plastic swap that you can either pop to the bathroom and use or take home and pop back to drop off. Is it not the same in the UK?

Nope, although from what others posters hade said, I think people can pay to do this privately. For me personally, it’s not the smear process itself that’s the issue

OP posts:
AlexisP90 · 30/05/2025 23:21

While I do understand false positives and unnecessary treatment happen I still would rather that than it be something more potentially and cause me and my family great grief down the line.

TiswasPhantomFlanFlinger · 30/05/2025 23:22

Zedania73 · 30/05/2025 21:29

I think Jade Goody had ovarian cancer for which there is no screening, but I might be wrong.
Nevertheless it's important to go for smear test.

Edited

Jade Goody had cervical cancer.

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:23

Posted this on the other thread on a similar subject:

For the benefit of this thread and a more balanced discussion Im reposting here:

Dr Margaret McCartney who wrote the patient paradox, won't take part in cervical screening herself for various reasons. She makes the point of you have symptoms you absolutely should get checked though. If you know who she is, this isn't an insignificant comment.

Given her analysis of the harms / considerations about informed consent / analysis of risk profiles / how data is presented in a biased way and how she breaks all this down in various ways, she's a pretty heavy weight voice to say that.

In her book, the Patient Paradox, she doesn't go that far on a personal level but she later wrote a newspaper explicitly on cervical screening.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-i-m-saying-no-to-a-smear-7577967.html

In her book she talks more widely about bowel cancer screening commenting that during trials they realised that there was a point where there was almost a point where patients were 'too informed' and didn't comply with the 'desired behaviour' of providers instead opting not to take up the offer.

She also talks about the adverse effects of pressuring patients into cervical screening / advising about weight etc in a tick box way because it can reduce healthcare engagement as a side effect. Thus if they have symptoms about something completely unrelated, patients will leave it longer before seeking treatment because they are worried that they will be scolded about non compliant behaviour for the box tick. This could put their health at risk - and they were never at risk for the issue relating to the box tick.

And this interview is interesting:

https://www.sefap.org/2014/09/24/interview-with-margaret-mccartney-the-waste-and-harm-of-overdiagnosis/

-M.M.: This is the “popularity paradox”. The worse a screening test is, the more false positives there are; the more false positives there are, the more people are led to believe that a screening test saved their life. So the paradox is that the poor screening test becomes more popular, as people are led to believe that they have been saved, not harmed, by it.

She's saying that screening is driven a lot by peer pressure and people coming along saying 'you should have your test, my test saved my life'.

Except the paradox is that lots of these people, didn't have their life saved. They had unnecessary treatment. But they will never know their treatment was unnecessary because of how this works. They just believe their life was saved rather than understanding they might have been one of those who had actually been harmed by screening.

It's a difficult thing to get your head around. Its's an uncomfortable thought that many of those who are 'walking adverts for the success of screening' are actually the unwitting unaware victims of harms done by screening. Certainly no one who may have gone through that will want to consider they've potentially been harmed rather saved. Psychologically it doesn't compute.

Her point is that some of these numbers when assessing risk are massively off.

If the risk across the population as a whole is 1 in 2000, this isn't an evenly spread thing. Certain conditions are very much part of a pattern of family history. So if you have a family history of a certain cancer your risk is actually much higher than that 2000, but the reverse is also true if there isn't that pattern. And this massively distorts 'the risk' you are presented with.

The Jade Goody case above is a good example of a poor example. She had symptoms and was known to be high risk - this means she's not a good example for advocates of routine screening. She was the victim of poor care.

Thus if you are armed with this knowledge about risk not being evenly spread, you might make different decisions. People with a family history might take it much more seriously whereas other might go, actually that risk is really really small, is it worth taking the risk of harm because that's actually a lot higher for me all things considered and I also might wish to consider the impact of the actual procedure itself to my mental health.

Thus being MORE informed can lead to patients deciding they don't want to consent in certain situations.

The whole discussion around presentation of risk is a fascinating one. I do recommend reading up CAREFULLY about what she says in full. Everyone should read the Patient Paradox even though it's now quite an old book now - it's still hugely relevant today. It's one of those books which is hugely important (Ben Goldacre's books are better known about big pharma and bad science more generally, but it's the same principle).

McCartney also talks a lot about the misogynistic nature of the promotion of screening programmes to women too and how they are potentially very unethical and rely on coercive techniques and the infantilisation and patronising of women which doesn't happen in the same way to men. (There are examples of this on this thread).

The point here is that 'risk' is a lot more nuanced and complex than we are often led to believe. When you break it down and assess it, it's not necessarily what we are presented with by the NHS when it tries to promote screening.

There's not necessarily a 'right answer' and one size fits all approach here because there are many variables and different women have different priorities, concerns and risk factors (and this differs a lot from vaccinations which require hire immunity too). It HAS to be a personal decision rather than trying to treat this as something that every woman 'should' or worse 'must' do.

It's a fascinating subject, and I really can't help feel we haven't moved on at all since she wrote it. It's so wrong.

Interview with Margaret McCartney. The waste and harm of overdiagnosis

Puedes leer esta entrevista en castellano aquí. Margaret McCartney is a General Practitioner (GP) and undergraduate tutor at the School of Medicine in the University of Glasgow. She is also a columnist for the British Medical Journal. Award-winning wri...

https://www.sefap.org/2014/09/24/interview-with-margaret-mccartney-the-waste-and-harm-of-overdiagnosis/

Dontknowwhattodowithmyselfnow · 30/05/2025 23:26

Do it! Don't be stupid

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:26

onelostsoulswimminginafishbowl · 30/05/2025 23:13

I live in NZ and here the doctor gives you a small plastic swap that you can either pop to the bathroom and use or take home and pop back to drop off. Is it not the same in the UK?

No.

We are still in the dark ages' here.

B1rthdayD1lemna · 30/05/2025 23:26

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:23

Posted this on the other thread on a similar subject:

For the benefit of this thread and a more balanced discussion Im reposting here:

Dr Margaret McCartney who wrote the patient paradox, won't take part in cervical screening herself for various reasons. She makes the point of you have symptoms you absolutely should get checked though. If you know who she is, this isn't an insignificant comment.

Given her analysis of the harms / considerations about informed consent / analysis of risk profiles / how data is presented in a biased way and how she breaks all this down in various ways, she's a pretty heavy weight voice to say that.

In her book, the Patient Paradox, she doesn't go that far on a personal level but she later wrote a newspaper explicitly on cervical screening.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-i-m-saying-no-to-a-smear-7577967.html

In her book she talks more widely about bowel cancer screening commenting that during trials they realised that there was a point where there was almost a point where patients were 'too informed' and didn't comply with the 'desired behaviour' of providers instead opting not to take up the offer.

She also talks about the adverse effects of pressuring patients into cervical screening / advising about weight etc in a tick box way because it can reduce healthcare engagement as a side effect. Thus if they have symptoms about something completely unrelated, patients will leave it longer before seeking treatment because they are worried that they will be scolded about non compliant behaviour for the box tick. This could put their health at risk - and they were never at risk for the issue relating to the box tick.

And this interview is interesting:

https://www.sefap.org/2014/09/24/interview-with-margaret-mccartney-the-waste-and-harm-of-overdiagnosis/

-M.M.: This is the “popularity paradox”. The worse a screening test is, the more false positives there are; the more false positives there are, the more people are led to believe that a screening test saved their life. So the paradox is that the poor screening test becomes more popular, as people are led to believe that they have been saved, not harmed, by it.

She's saying that screening is driven a lot by peer pressure and people coming along saying 'you should have your test, my test saved my life'.

Except the paradox is that lots of these people, didn't have their life saved. They had unnecessary treatment. But they will never know their treatment was unnecessary because of how this works. They just believe their life was saved rather than understanding they might have been one of those who had actually been harmed by screening.

It's a difficult thing to get your head around. Its's an uncomfortable thought that many of those who are 'walking adverts for the success of screening' are actually the unwitting unaware victims of harms done by screening. Certainly no one who may have gone through that will want to consider they've potentially been harmed rather saved. Psychologically it doesn't compute.

Her point is that some of these numbers when assessing risk are massively off.

If the risk across the population as a whole is 1 in 2000, this isn't an evenly spread thing. Certain conditions are very much part of a pattern of family history. So if you have a family history of a certain cancer your risk is actually much higher than that 2000, but the reverse is also true if there isn't that pattern. And this massively distorts 'the risk' you are presented with.

The Jade Goody case above is a good example of a poor example. She had symptoms and was known to be high risk - this means she's not a good example for advocates of routine screening. She was the victim of poor care.

Thus if you are armed with this knowledge about risk not being evenly spread, you might make different decisions. People with a family history might take it much more seriously whereas other might go, actually that risk is really really small, is it worth taking the risk of harm because that's actually a lot higher for me all things considered and I also might wish to consider the impact of the actual procedure itself to my mental health.

Thus being MORE informed can lead to patients deciding they don't want to consent in certain situations.

The whole discussion around presentation of risk is a fascinating one. I do recommend reading up CAREFULLY about what she says in full. Everyone should read the Patient Paradox even though it's now quite an old book now - it's still hugely relevant today. It's one of those books which is hugely important (Ben Goldacre's books are better known about big pharma and bad science more generally, but it's the same principle).

McCartney also talks a lot about the misogynistic nature of the promotion of screening programmes to women too and how they are potentially very unethical and rely on coercive techniques and the infantilisation and patronising of women which doesn't happen in the same way to men. (There are examples of this on this thread).

The point here is that 'risk' is a lot more nuanced and complex than we are often led to believe. When you break it down and assess it, it's not necessarily what we are presented with by the NHS when it tries to promote screening.

There's not necessarily a 'right answer' and one size fits all approach here because there are many variables and different women have different priorities, concerns and risk factors (and this differs a lot from vaccinations which require hire immunity too). It HAS to be a personal decision rather than trying to treat this as something that every woman 'should' or worse 'must' do.

It's a fascinating subject, and I really can't help feel we haven't moved on at all since she wrote it. It's so wrong.

Thanks for sharing

OP posts:
KnickerlessParsons · 30/05/2025 23:29

What’s worse - a false positive or having undetected cancer?

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:29

Someone just posted a laughing emoji to my post.

Really, go and read up on how respected Margaret McCartney is and WHY she says this rather than being really ignorant and laughing.

Fine if you don't agree, and make your own decision but just laughing is the height of ignorance.

She is NOT a crank. Far from it. She's the opposite. She's incredibly well respected.

AlexisP90 · 30/05/2025 23:30

KnickerlessParsons · 30/05/2025 23:29

What’s worse - a false positive or having undetected cancer?

I mean it's choice right. Say no if you want to.

I know which I would rather

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:30

KnickerlessParsons · 30/05/2025 23:29

What’s worse - a false positive or having undetected cancer?

It's not a choice between the two though is it?

That's a false dilemma.

ThisCraftyHelper · 30/05/2025 23:31

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:29

Someone just posted a laughing emoji to my post.

Really, go and read up on how respected Margaret McCartney is and WHY she says this rather than being really ignorant and laughing.

Fine if you don't agree, and make your own decision but just laughing is the height of ignorance.

She is NOT a crank. Far from it. She's the opposite. She's incredibly well respected.

Can I ask do you know when them interviews were written?

AlexisP90 · 30/05/2025 23:32

RedToothBrush · 30/05/2025 23:29

Someone just posted a laughing emoji to my post.

Really, go and read up on how respected Margaret McCartney is and WHY she says this rather than being really ignorant and laughing.

Fine if you don't agree, and make your own decision but just laughing is the height of ignorance.

She is NOT a crank. Far from it. She's the opposite. She's incredibly well respected.

This wasn't me and I am in no way discrediting her in my replies to this post.

I just personally think which I would rather.

It's choice right. No body is forcing you.

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